Sandboxing in the Nentir Vale (was: Emergent Features in KotS)

[LostSoul]

Just finished playing. A quick recap here.

We only had 3 players, so 3 third-level PCs ventured into the Cairngorms - a level 6 area. Dangerous, but smart play would triumph and lead to generous rewards. Exactly the kind of play I am looking for in this game.

The PCs went in, encounter some wandering monsters:

• A clutch of griffons, a mating pair and two nearly grown, flying around. They ignored the party due to their lack of horses.
• The survivors of the Guttersnipe Goblin Tribe, 4 goblins and 4 hobgoblins. The PCs laid an ambush; at a tense moment in the fight, where one hobgoblin had readied an action to coup de grace a PC, the goblins tried to parley. The PCs killed them, but only barely. My DM notes said that they would not fight, but would attempt to gain allies.
• Camping out on the side of a mountain using a ritual to summon nature spirits to hide them, dire wolves approached, following their scent, but lost it and moved on.

The PCs spotted an old PC - Malchior, now a battle wight - leading a group of zombies to his old family tomb in the Cairngorms. The PCs laid an ambush; three of the zombies turned out to be ghouls and the fight was very close. Once again the PCs triumphed.

Cool features:

A quick flowing mountain stream that knocked you prone and dragged you downstream. (+9 vs. Fort, prone and slide 1d6 squares.)
Players strategizing and planning out when to engage, using rituals to hide themselves.
Setting up an amush and creating a trap on the fly using the damage guidelines on page 42. (A rockslide; level 5; +8 vs Ref in a specific area; 3d10+4 damage, miss half, area turns to difficult terrain; DC 21 Endurance and Atheletics checks to create the trap, failure on either one indicates the loss of a Healing Surge.)
The utter kick-assitude of the Druid Daily 5 power, Wall of Thorns (or whatever it's called).
Using the PC's Intimidate checks as monster morale checks (Free Actions).
Giving the elven Ranger a +2 to saves against ghoul paralysis.
Sharok the dwarven druid making a diving leap off a 15-foot cliff, driving a Corruption Corpse into the wall (attack vs. Reflex, push 2 and prone, Sharok takes 1d10 falling damage and falls prone).

I'm sure there were a few others; I was in an ad-libbing mood tonight.

edit: One other cool thing. When the hobgoblin was readying an action to coup de grace Umar, I described him holding Umar's head in his hand. That meant he didn't have his shield ready. When Sharok attacked, the 2 points of AC from being without his shield was the difference.

 

[LostSoul]

We played again on Wednesday. Not too much to say.

The PCs in the Cairngorms returned; I decided not to roll on the wandering monsters chart. They spent a few days in Winterhaven resting up. I actually wasn't expecting this! I had to think on my feet about what the cultists would do once they found out about wight-Malchior's fall.

I decided they would send a vampirized Bren the Bold to scout for information about these new troublemakers.

After a few days the PCs saw some bats flying about. They heard about a young single male farmer (John) who went missing. They checked out the scene and saw some small-sized tracks, sign of a scuffle, and some blood. No tracks leading away, though.

Since they wanted to head to Harken Forest, they cast Undead Ward around the walls of Winterhaven. A bad roll meant that only level 1 undead would be blocked, but the PCs didn't know this so they were stuck with the roll. They told everyone to stay indoors after dusk and hoped they would be okay as they left for Harken Forest.

As they neared the wood they saw some goblins - a band of about 20 - marching through with an elven prisoner. Aiden, who is from Harken Forest, knew the guy - Theron. They ambushed the goblins and took them down. These goblins were a different kind - their leader wore a holy symbol of Lolth and they cursed the PCs ("Lolth will lay eggs in your eyeballs") and fought like fanatics to the death. (Most of them. Two ran off.)

Theron did some exposition. The goblin raids were getting worse. Spiders roam the wood. Everyone knows they're coming from Daggersburg Keep - an old elven fortress called Lanath Keep built to house their noble dead, destroyed during the Bloodspear War - but Dara, leader of the Woodsinger clan, has forbidden the elves from going there. Theron got fed up with it and was hunting goblins, but this gang tracked him down and caught him.

The PCs rested in Harkenwold. The humans don't have any contact with the elves - the elves turn them back whenever they enter the wood. The goblins sometimes raid the road but they've never threatened Harkenwold. They also heard a rumour about the Baron's son out fighting trolls somewhere to the north.

The PCs decided to check out Daggersburg Keep. The stone foundation was still standing but it had been burnt out. Only one tower was in good shape. They could see long, ropy strands of spiderweb all around the keep. The main gate was filled with crimson strands of webbing, which they burned.

When they entered the keep some goblins hiding in the gatehouse poured burning oil on Aiden and a swarm of spiders leapt down. One of the goblins threatened to throw a torch at Aiden, igniting the oil, but Aiden was pulled out of danger by a gust of wind from Sharok. The battle was short.

In the courtyard they could see a number of spiders lurking about... but that's where we called it for the night.

 

[LostSoul]

Just got back from the game.

So we last left the PCs in the ruined courtyard of an ancient elven keep, where the compound eyes of three deathjump spiders were looking down on them from behind the ruined battlements.

A spiders leapt on Umar when he closed in range of its amazing leap. The fight was on. Umar fought bravely and whalloped the spider, and between him and Aiden the spider didn't last long.

The others raced for Shamon, Kiva, and their elven ally Theron (an NPC saved from goblins last adventure). Kiva and Shamon took some hits, but together they were able to take one out. Kiva was bitten and poison burned in her veins, making her legs feel like lead. She stuggled to get out of the courtyard.

The lone spider skittered up the wall away from Shamon and dropped down to block of Kiva's escape. Another crept out from the well in the middle of the courtyard to see what all the fuss was about. It crept up the wall and leapt down on Shamon, dropping him, the soporific poison taking effect. With its fangs in Shamon's leg it started dragging Shamon back to the well.

Theron tried to rouse Shamon with a shake and a slap, but could not. Aiden and Umar raced to lend aid and a shout from Umar broke through the Shamon's poison-induced haze. A few quick blows later and the spiders were dead.

I like deathjump spiders. They don't hit too often but they do scary damage and their movement is cool. I decided that their leap from above attack that deals the extra d6 damage could only be used if, you know, they leapt from above. The spiders also trailed a web behind them as they lept, creating a line that needed one extra square of movement to cross.​

The noise from the battle alterted a goblin guard in a nearby tower (the only one left in any kind of habitable condition); he snickered at the PCs and retreated back into the tower.

The PCs took a short rest and checked out the tower. Aiden noticed that the goblin's tracks in the dust were extra-light over a certain area of the floor; it turns out they had dug a pit there. Aiden gathered some planks from the ruins outside and laid them across the pit.

The tower was big enough to hold a number of rooms. They entered one and saw a small pool that had formed in the collapsed floor. An elven statue - Correllon? - was half-submerged in the pool, along with a bed.

Umar connected with the primal forces of the world and peered into the murky pool, seeing a large slime moving about in it (and a silver mace - untarnished). Umar alterted the party, and when the stinking blue slime erupted they were able to put it down without much fuss.

The goblin underboss they had encountered a couple of days ago (and let go) came around the corner, clapping sarcastically. "Oh, well done. We just avoided that thing."

The goblin had been sent up to the tower on guard duty as punishment for being a survivor of the raid. He filled them in on what lay beneath the keep:

• A lair of 50 or so goblins, half non-combatants, ex-Guttersnipes from the Cairngorms; not too happy with the presence of all the spiders, or with all the necessary obidience to Lolth
• 15 or so hobgoblin mercenaries come to kill elves
• 20 or so goblin slaves to Lolth
• A drow witch
• Female elven screams coming from somewhere deep within the dungeons
• A sacrificial altar to Lolth and some prisoners
• An underground forest, the ceiling appearing to be stars, magically created by the elves, now full of spiders
• A pool far underneath the dungeons

The drow was the obvious leader, and the obvious target. Several plans were worked out, including killing them all, assassinating the drow (but having to go through the guards first), and having Shamon disguise himself as a drow in order to cause chaos.

When Aiden asked about ventilation, he recalled (with an Insight check) that the well must lead down to the pool. The goblin told them that he didn't know where the well led to, but it didn't go to the forest.

They sent Theron, the [-]NPC cannon fodder[/i] brave elf scout to check it out. When he came back his face was white and he was obviously terrified. He reported a big cave, the sounds of water, and terrifying screams from somewhere in the darkness.

The PCs went down while Aiden threw down burning bits of a cart to illuminate the area. They fell into a pool at the bottom of the well, but lit up the area well enough for the PCs to see. There was some dry area they could make it to if they swam, so they went down there.

Umar was first. As he was climbing down the deathjump spider-web rope, he suddenly found himself staring into the face of a female elven ghost - and her horrific visage caused him to freeze up and lose all control. He was stuck there, immobilized on the rope, until Shamon slid down the rope and knocked him into the water; the sudden cold broke him out of it.

The ghost, meanwhile, had disappeared.

The PCs swam to the shore of the underground pool. They spotted a skeleton lying in a small cave nearby; Umar checked it out. It was a humanoid skeleton, lying there for a long time, its dress stained and torn in the brest as if someone had plunged a dagger through it.

The dress was very similar to the one the ghost was "wearing".

At that point the ghost - the banshee - appeared from out of the wall and moved into the middle of the party.

More in a bit.

 

[LostSoul]

"Who dares disturb me?" The words cut through the air, pregnant with power and despair. "This is my lair; leave or suffer."

"You don't mind the goblins and the spiders?" Aiden asks, knocking his bow. The banshee looks familiar - much like Dara, the current leader of the Woodsinger elves.

"What do I care? The war is over for my people. Let the others do as they will." Umar realizes that she is speaking of the Bloodspear War, which ended in defeat for the forces of Nerath.

Kiva prepares to blast the banshee.

Theron steps forward. "Thia, my Queen," he says, referring to Dara's mother, the last Queen of the elves, "what has happened to you? How can I help you?" He kneels before her.

Thia smiles. "You can share my pain!" she screams. The sheer power of her words, fuelled by a will tormented by incredible anguish, overwhelms the party. Each one of them is stricken by one thought only: flee.

Shamon, Theron, and Kiva are forced back to the water's edge. Shamon is able to throw himself to the ground, but the others leap into the pool to get away. Kiva is able to launch a blast of infernal fire, but in her panic she misses the banshee. Their limbs frozen in terror, Theron and Kiva begin to sink into the depths.

Aiden rushes back up a set of stairs leading to a door. With his back to the door he fires a pair of arrows; one strikes true, but it passes through Thia, carrying only a small wisp of her ghostly form with it.

Umar flees into the alcove containing the skeleton, just out of sight of the banshee. His heart pounds in his chest and he's unable to force himself to move. He focuses his will enough to call upon the primal forces of the world to get a better look at the skeleton. He can see that it's been there for about a hundred years, where it fell after Thia plunged a dagger into her own heart. He's able to tell that someone moved it months ago and took the dagger.

From the ground, Shamon launches dire radiance at the ghost, but his spell does not break through the banshee's defenses.

Aiden, with his back to the door, can hear someone moving around in the room beyond. He notices a faint purple light coming from underneath the door. He decides to ignore this for now and instead wills himself to address Thia. "What killed you?" he asks.

Thia turns her attention to Aiden. "Hope," she says.

"Hope? I've never heard of hope killing someone."

"I had hope that we would win the war. I had hope that my husband would be at my side forever. I had hope that Corellon would not ignore my pleas. I had hope, but in the end all I had was betrayal."

"What happened?"

"Let me show you." Thia sails towards him, and Aiden is unable to will himself to move. She touches him on the face; her hand is as cold as death itself, and Aiden experiences an instant of ultimate despair (times two). His flesh is seared by her touch.

Shamon casts a quick spell to embue his words with a magical glamer and asks: "What do you want?" The spell breaks through Thia's unearthly will, and she shudders.

"What do I want? I want my husband to be at peace, to undo the awful horror and torment I put upon him. I want to undo the pact I made with the Queen of Spiders. I want to rest and be free of this mortal coil."

"If we do this, will you help us get rid of the goblins?"

"I will let you leave. Leave now. Being in the presence of your hope multiplies my anguish."

"We're cool with that."

The PCs quickly gather their drowning companions (Theron and Kiva); the banshee stirs uneasily at their continued presence and begins to wail quietly. The PCs attempt to open the door (where the strange purple light is coming from), but find it barred; Shamon lends Aiden his crowbar and he's able to force it open with Umar's help.

The PCs enter a bedroom and discover the source of the purple light: an altar to Lolth. A dark elf in robes stands across the room from them, near the altar, a rod carved into the shape of spiders in one hand and a dagger in the other. She smiles at them and says, "Lolth will devour your eyeballs."

More to come.

 

[LostSoul]

"Lolth will devour your eyeballs," the drow archanomancer says as she points her rod at the PCs. Invoking words of abyssal power, a tiny portal opens to the abyss for a mere instant; this is enough time for dark, spectral webs and a swarm of tiny spiders to explore out. The webs, strong as steel, wrap and bind everyone save Shamon who hides behind Aiden.

Shamon springs at the drow, forcing his way through the webs as he is being devoured by the abyssal spiders. Outside of the web, they collapse off of him and retreat back; Shamon lunges at the drow and stabs at her, his sword turned aside by a last-minute dodge.

Umar roars, overcome by primal fury, and appears next to the drow in a thunderclap. The drow is dazed by the thunder and a drop of blood trickles from her ear.

Kiva, being eaten in the web but trapped and unable to move, spots the only space free from spiders that she can teleport to: just above a curtained area. She teleports there and falls on her face, but the spiders don't come with her.

Theron fires his bow at the drow but misses as she dodges the arrows with inhuman agility. The spiders feast on his elf-flesh, burrowing deep into him, and he cries in pain.

Aiden does not try to escape the spiders, as his armour is keeping the worst of them at bay; he looses a pair of arrows; one glances off the drow's arm, leaving a minor scratch. She responds by casting a spell, the most she can do while shaking off the effects of Umar's dazing thunder. A cloud of darkness rolls out from her spider rod, completely obscuring her, Theron, and Shamon.

Hidden in the darkness, no one is able to strike true. Aiden is able to break free from the webs tying him down, but Theron is not. The elf cries in pain as the spiders burrow through his flesh towards his organs.

The darkness disappears as the drow steps out, heading towards the stairs, where she points her rod at the party. A gout of poison covers everyone save Kiva, who is out of range. The poison burns and Theron falls to the ground. The drow smiles and turns to flee up a set of stairs.

Shamon tries to cut her escape off, but she hits him with her spider rod and webs tie him to the ground; this momentary distraction allows Umar to stomp on the ground, throwing the drow a few feet away from the stairs. Shamon and Umar attack the drow bu she's far too fast, moving with speed they did not think possible. Kiva, however, aims a shot and an eldritch blast of infernal energy strikes the dark elven witch, searing her flesh.

"Curse you!" she screams.

Aiden looks at Theron, who is on the ground and being devoured from the inside out by the abyssal spiders. He springs at the drow, moving through the webs with elven grace and draws his blades. The drow, harried from all angles, cannot dodge; Aiden plunges his twin blades into her chest. She lets out a gurgled curse as Aiden kicks her corpse away; her still beating heart rips free, impaled on his scimitar.


And that was it for the night. Pretty cool session. We ran the talk with the banshee as a normal combat, not a skill challenge, though in retrospect I probably would have done that instead. It worked out well in any case.

The fight with both those high-level normal monsters was fun. The drow battle was tense as the PCs were low on surges (Aiden spent his last one during the fight, I think), it was really hard for the PCs to hit, and its web spell did a lot of damage. It only took a few good hits to bring her down; the last attack from Aiden included a critical and his total damage was 55.

Lots of loot, but the drow had some guards up the stairs who are going to come by pretty soon (after the PCs get a short rest). Things could still go bad for them; we'll see what they decide to do.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I'm not sure why I was so frustrated; I guess I just wanted the NPCs to do better, which is a bad way to look at things. Luckily I didn't make any stupid calls or anything like that. I'm not sure what the issue is, I just don't know why that last fight was such a cakewalk. I'm struggling with how to make this campaign interesting and challenging when it's not all in a dungeon (when extended rests are hard to come by), still maintain consistency and integrity in the campaign world, and challenge the PCs on a long-term, strategic level.

That is, the PCs should be able to "nova" and blow out a challenging encounter, but I want them to be able to do that only through their own smart choices; being able to "nova" and turn challenging encounters into cakewalks shouldn't be the normal state of things. But if I throw in 3+ encounters every day, that doesn't make any sense and means their choices don't matter.

This is the system fighting you, and is a feature of the "daily attrition" vs. "long-term attrition" model. Making extending rests rely on some form of long-term model, as was suggested re: milestones, is one way to deal with this problem.

The basic rule is that, if you want the players to not "nova", then not "nova"ing has to be a smart choice. And that means, perforce, that there must be some consequence for "nova"ing. Classically, the consequence is the potential of running into a wandering (or set) encounter without any big guns. By making it take longer to restore your abilities the larger the gun used, 1e made players perforce consider using lower-level spells, etc., instead of their better, higher-level counterparts. This was another way to help prevent "nova"ing.

(This is something that got discussed quite a bit in light of the pre-4e design blogs. Mustrum_Ridicully made some astute observations then that might help you now. I'd consider giving him a poke.)

Best of luck,


RC

 

[LostSoul]

This is the system fighting you, and is a feature of the "daily attrition" vs. "long-term attrition" model. Making extending rests rely on some form of long-term model, as was suggested re: milestones, is one way to deal with this problem.

We switched to a slightly different extended rest system; each night you can get back a daily power or two healing surges. So far, in play this has allowed the game world to progress at a decent rate ("Let's rest up in Winterhaven for 4 days before heading out"), and it makes the attrition model more long term.

It's hard to get used to a different style of gaming. I miss the days when I could just offer up moral quandries!

 

[Raven Crowking]

We switched to a slightly different extended rest system; each night you can get back a daily power or two healing surges. So far, in play this has allowed the game world to progress at a decent rate ("Let's rest up in Winterhaven for 4 days before heading out"), and it makes the attrition model more long term.

Often it's just a matter of identifying the source of the problem, and then fixing that. Glad you were able to do so.

It's hard to get used to a different style of gaming. I miss the days when I could just offer up moral quandries!

Well, there are a lot of other options out there. 4e is a game I would be willing to play in, but that I would have no interest in GMing. The focus is just not on what I consider interesting from that side of the screen.....well, from either side of the screen, but as a player I can deal with it.


RC

 

[two_fishes]

Looks like things are really clipping along! I miss this game!

 

[ferratus]

Your two threads on the Nentir Vale LostSoul are half the reason I come to Enworld. Keep it up!