Sanity and fear

[gurgi]

The backara team are currently looking at modelling fear and sanity in D20

were after any ideas for how people model in paticular recording sanity and the relationship between fear and sanity.

we already have some ideas which vary from a points scheme for sanity to an ability score called sanity.

similar ideas exist for fear, though niether are modelled the way we wish.

so ideas suggestions...

 

[Tonguez]

For Fear I use Will check against DC = Phobia +Size + CR + Horror factor

HORROR FACTOR is set for Creature Type
Humanoids, Animals 0
Monstrous Humanoids, Beasts 5
Giants, Undead 10
Dragons, Abberations 15
Outsiders 20

SIZE
Tiny -2
Small, Medium 0
Large +1
Huge +2

PC PHOBIA (current level of fear)
5 None
10 Minor
15 Great
20 Major
25 Extreme
30 Debilitating

eg DC for a Huge CR 5 Dragon, Phobia = 5+2+5+15 (27)
PC makes a will check DC 27

If save is more than double the DC then the PC gains a +1 bonus for that creature type.

If failed the PC suffers a fear effect
and must make another will save to overcome that effect.
If the second save is failed then phobia for that type of creature increases one step (eg from Minor to Great)
If the third save attempt is failed then Trauma occurs and an Insanity effect develops (which I go into when I get home)
Basicaaly fit into the scheme of

Obsessions
Delusions
Paranoia (Schizoid)
Wisdom Damage
Psychosis

 

[Al]

Tonguez:

Your example torpedoes the system. A CR5 dragon, we assume, is facing a 5th level party. Using DMG standard characters, the cleric needs a 19 to make the save, and all of the other PCs need a natural 20.

That means that, once magnified through the three saves, the cleric has a 72.9% chance of suffering trauma, and the other PCs have over an 80% chance. This is coming from a monster of equivalent power.

Even without tacking on large modifiers for type, the DCs scale too quickly. The DCs scale at a rate of 1/level, so to keep up with that the Will saves need to advance at 1/level. Not a single class can match this. Even when magic is thrown in, only the good Will save classes can compete: and only just. The addition of an arbitary 5 'phobia factor' and type modifiers is adding insult to injury.

Even leaving this aside, this system is something of a nonsense. Using the scales here, a Grey Render has a fear DC significantly lower than a humble Imp (19 vs. 25). Even a CR1 lemure has a DC of 26 (i.e. impossible for a 1st level party without a natural 20).

Neither do the DC modifiers make sense. For some reason, Giants have a Horror Factor of +10. Why? If it because they are big, it should be a size modifier. If not, then it makes no sense: most giants are, by definition, simply larger versions of humanoids.

The size DCs are also too small. Should the difference between a Tiny Humanoid and a Tiny Beast really be greater than that of between a Tiny Humanoid and a Huge Humanoid?

Essentially, this is a fine system in theory. Unfortunately, it has major stumbling blocks. The DCs of certain creatures are so high as to crush PCs of equivalent power. The size DCs make no sense in relation to the other DCs, being far too small. Some of the type DCs are illogical. Even the CR DC can be a bone of contention: if an 8th level fighter and a 9th level fighter are equipped identically, how do the PCs tell which is stronger (and hence more frightening?).

 

[Tonguez]

It suppose to - Dragons are terrifying monsters and creatures of legend which generations of people have told to frieghten their children. The PCs were once children

Therefore when a PC sees a Dragon all their childhood fears return in a sudden rush of fear. Afterall the PCs see a Huge Dragon NOT a CR 5 one.

Giants are equally imposing monsters not because of there size but cbecause of their presence

I also tend to make my Outsiders more powerful - afterall they are Alien intelligences

However I do agree that the size mods are problematic


The other point is most Insanity effects aren't too much of a burden (they range from simple quirks like must wash their hands after every battle (compulsive behaviour) and most can be overcome with i9ncrease levels and spells.

 

[CullAfulMoshuN]

I would suggest you get copy of Cthulhu d20 as it is a great book and contains sanity rules that could be easily placed in a dark and gritty style D&D game.

 

[gurgi]

Tonguez
the system looks intresting I'm going to to do a quick playtest but I can see that as a good basis for fear checks.

CullAfulMoshuN
We already have looked at and decided against any system based on CoC rules. Several reasons the biggest being they still use d100. This is not bad as it keeps CoC how it should be but for us we are looking at making sanity system using pure D20 mechanics.

Of paticular intrest now is how people deal with fear wearing off. We were hoping for some sort of log scale so while the initial moment after the removal of the thing causing fear causes immense relief it takes days to truly get over it.
but how do others handle this?

 

[rankarrog]

This might be useful, but for your own games only, because it's not OpenGameContent (And went nearly identical to the Ravenloft 3e-Campaign Setting):
http://www.kargatane.com/shadows/fear.shtml

 

[Al]

It suppose to - Dragons are terrifying monsters and creatures of legend which generations of people have told to frieghten their children. The PCs were once children

Therefore when a PC sees a Dragon all their childhood fears return in a sudden rush of fear. Afterall the PCs see a Huge Dragon NOT a CR 5 one.

Giants are equally imposing monsters not because of there size but cbecause of their presence

I also tend to make my Outsiders more powerful - afterall they are Alien intelligences

However I do agree that the size mods are problematic


The other point is most Insanity effects aren't too much of a burden (they range from simple quirks like must wash their hands after every battle (compulsive behaviour) and most can be overcome with i9ncrease levels and spells.

On dragons: fair point. +15 is probably still excessive though. I'd be more scared of a Frost Worm than a White Wyrmling.

On giants: I don't buy it. Presence? Surely this is represented by Charisma, which many giants tend to be lacking in. If by presence you mean size, then we're back to square one.

Mind you, if Insanity effects are really no big deal, then- no big deal. But some of the effects described earlier (psychosis, permanent Wisdom loss etc.) sound quite nasty to me!

 

[gurgi]

Tonguez,
I like the system though it needs heavy modifying it looks like a good base for handling fear could u email me of board
gurgi@backara.co.uk

Any other suggestions including handling disorders and sanity.

 

[Grazzt]

Why not simplify things so it slipstreams into 3e easily? For example, a monster's "fear factor" could work like most other monster mechanics that require a DC (10 + 1/2 HD + relevant ability score modifier).

Normally the relevant ability score for fear effects is Cha, but you could change it to be 10 + 1/2 HD + Horror Factor. Where Horror factor is a bonus based on size and/or monster type.

Also- if ya use Size modifiers, these might work better.

Fine: -8
Diminutive: -6
Tiny: -4
Small: -2
Medium-size: +0
Large: +2
Huge: +4
Gargantuan: +6
Colossal: +8

So- just using a Horror Factor based on size gives the Gray Render (mentioned by Al in a post above) a Fear DC of 17 (10 + 5 + 2).

The lowly imp (mentioned by Al was well) has a Fear DC of 7 (10 +1 - 4).

EDIT: I dont think Monster Type should really factor into it. I mean, sure you say dragon most people thing giant fire-breathing (or some other energy type) lizard. But, D&D allows dragons to be off any size (some wyrmlings start as Tiny). Now, if I am a Medium-size (or larger) creature, I certainly am not gonna be that scared of something two or more sizes smaller than me.

So, giving a bonus based on monster type probably shouldnt work. I think you can achieve the desired effect just using HD (the bigger, badder monsters seem to have more anyway) and size.