Savage species and levels equivalent to hit dice

[Roman]

That's where the acid test comes in. You figure out what the race would be worth because of its special abilities, and then you compare it to an equally levelled PC. The parts of the LA that get dropped to even the two out can be considered the abilities gained from the "racial class." The remainder of LA pays for abilities that would make the class unbalanced if it was given straight up.

For example, look at the progression for the Annis Hag (pg 153). 7 Hit Dice, Level Adjustment +5. Its class progression gets abilties at every level, even those levels where racial hit dice are gained. When you reach 12th level in the class, you're a full Annis Hag, and a fairly close equivilent to a 12th level fighter, barbarian, or other warrior class.

Yes, this is a good point.

BTW: Has anyone created a racial class for dragons (say wyrmlings)? Unfortunately, Savage Species does not contain 'monster classes' for dragons and I am not sure how to create them.

 

[Pax]

Roman, pick up the Draconomicon. That has rules for Dragons as PCs.

 

[Roman]

Roman, pick up the Draconomicon. That has rules for Dragons as PCs.

I have the Draconomicon (it's a great book for all dragon fans). The problem is that even wyrmlings have ECLs that are understandably very high. Some players, but not all are interested in playing dragons, but I shall not start the game above level 5 at most. Hence, the only way to do so is to use 'monster classes' - so that characters only gradually gain powers of the dragon, but I cannot find any anywhere, so I was wondering if someone had created such.

 

[Pax]

So, take that wyrmling, look over the Savage Species "monster classes", and put together a "wyrmling" class for the player in question. ^_^

 

[Felon]

That's where the acid test comes in. You figure out what the race would be worth because of its special abilities, and then you compare it to an equally levelled PC.

But the acid test often simply doesn't work, as with the braxat example mentioned above. With 10 HD and a +7 LA braxat will have paltry hit points, skill points, and saves for a 17th level character, will only have a couple of attacks per round. OTOH, it will also be able to cast mind blank at will, allowing him to pass this ability on to an entire platoon of characters, which is too powerful an ability for even 17th level characters (a wizard would have just gained the ability to cast it once a day).

For example, look at the progression for the Annis Hag (pg 153). 7 Hit Dice, Level Adjustment +5. Its class progression gets abilties at every level, even those levels where racial hit dice are gained. When you reach 12th level in the class, you're a full Annis Hag, and a fairly close equivilent to a 12th level fighter, barbarian, or other warrior class.

The annis has 7 hit dice at that level, and receives a +4 racial bonus to Con. That averages to 45 hit points. The fighter will have an average of 66 and the barbarian will have 78. If you factor in individual Constitution scores, the discrepancy becomes significantly greater. Let's say they all have a 14 Con (with the annis's +4 racial bonus boosting hers too 18). The annis winds up with 59 hit points, the fighter 90, and the barbarian 102. She's can't hold the front line, and that's all a big melee monster like her is any good at. Like most monsters saddled with a large LA, the hag winds up being a paper tiger.

My house rules is to allow a monster to gain bonus hit points and skill points equal to its LA multiplied by its Con and Int mods (if positive), respectively. That would net the annis above another 20 hit points, which at least puts her in the same ball park with the fighter and barbarian.

 

[James McMurray]

But the acid test often simply doesn't work, as with the braxat example mentioned above. With 10 HD and a +7 LA braxat will have paltry hit points, skill points, and saves for a 17th level character, will only have a couple of attacks per round. OTOH, it will also be able to cast mind blank at will, allowing him to pass this ability on to an entire platoon of characters, which is too powerful an ability for even 17th level characters (a wizard would have just gained the ability to cast it once a day).

That wizard is also casting Maze and Polar Ray. Mind Blank at will is nowhere near unbalanced at 17th level when its a huge portion of your only abilities. You do realize that 17th level wizards can cast Meteor Swarm or Shapechange 1/day right? They can cast Mind Blank twice per day, barring specialization and high stats.

Th Braxat has fewer hit points than most characters of his level, but he also gets a higher AC and DR (at least 5/magic, don't have the conversion amnual in front of me). They also get Mind Blast and Dimension Door at will, two very useful abilities. Blink at will is lso pretty powerful. Confusion and Feeblemind 1/day each will help against wizards and warriors. One mile telepathy makes them great communicators.

They might be weak for a character of their level, but not majorly so. I'd probably never play one, but its rare that I play anything with an LA higher than +5 anyway. Its just personal preference, not because I think they aren't powerful enough.

The annis has 7 hit dice at that level, and receives a +4 racial bonus to Con. That averages to 45 hit points. The fighter will have an average of 66 and the barbarian will have 78. If you factor in individual Constitution scores, the discrepancy becomes significantly greater. Let's say they all have a 14 Con (with the annis's +4 racial bonus boosting hers too 18). The annis winds up with 59 hit points, the fighter 90, and the barbarian 102. She's can't hold the front line, and that's all a big melee monster like her is any good at. Like most monsters saddled with a large LA, the hag winds up being a paper tiger.

Tha Hag also has +10 natural armor to make up for the lower hit points. DR of 2/bludgeoning will also help a bit. She'll also tear foes apart with her +14 strength bonus, improved grab, rake, and rend. Fewer foes alive means les damage taken. The annis gets 3 attacks on a full attack at +13/+13/+8 for 1d6+7, 1d6+7, and 1d6+3. That same human fighter will get 3 attacks at +12/+7/+2 for 1d8 or 2d6. Those numbers don't include strength of course, but equal increases are equally useful to the Annis Hag and the fighter.

My house rules is to allow a monster to gain bonus hit points and skill points equal to its LA multiplied by its Con and Int mods (if positive), respectively. That would net the annis above another 20 hit points, which at least puts her in the same ball park with the fighter and barbarian.

That makes her vastly better at defense than the fighter. 79 hit points + DR 2/bludgeoning + 10 natural armor + reach is much better than 90 hit points + squat defensively speaking IMO.

 

[Tatsukun]

On a similar note, I have found that the LA system means that you just can’t pay one of these races from level one. If you are something with one starting hit die (like any PHB race) and a LA of, let’s say +2 (maybe Drow)…

So if you want to be a wizard, you are now a level one wizard with something like 4 Hp. But, you are supposed to be equal to a level three wizard. But if you meet one, one magic missile and your dead.

If you have something with an even bigger LA it gets silly.

I guess the normal answer for this is the “you should not have a PC with a LA of more than half the total levels”. Thus, every Drow PC has to have at least two levels of a class to be playable.

So, what? Every Drow is born with two levels of a class? I think it’s more reasonable to say that they don’t leave home to go adventuring before they have two levels. But that still feels like a cop-out.

I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t like a system that can’t model large groups of characters.

-Tatsu

 

[James McMurray]

Create yourself a level progression for the race, where at 1st level you get the wizard class and most elven abilities. At level 2 you get either the stat mods or the spell-like abilities. At level 3 you get the rest. Bingo, you get to start playing at 1st level.

You're still screwed if an enemy magic user casts Magic Misile at you, but at least you've got SR 12 (a 45% chance that the MM bounces off).

 

[foxylady]

But the acid test often simply doesn't work, as with the braxat example mentioned above. With 10 HD and a +7 LA braxat will have paltry hit points, skill points, and saves for a 17th level character, will only have a couple of attacks per round. OTOH, it will also be able to cast mind blank at will, allowing him to pass this ability on to an entire platoon of characters, which is too powerful an ability for even 17th level characters (a wizard would have just gained the ability to cast it once a day).

Of all the abilities I would worry about, Mind Blank at will is very, very far down my list. It's an 8th level spell; so what? Magic Missile at will would be far better, and it's only a 1st level spell. If anything, Mink Blank at will is a terribly weak ability for its by-the-book LA.