Savage Worlds

[ragboy]

Of course, the PC advantage is that they're Wild Cards and get to roll that extra die, and get bennies. But strictly by the numbers, you aren't going to get Lara Croft/Indiana Jones/Han Solo/Jack Sparrow/etc. as starting characters. To me, that feels weird, that the pulp/action game doesn't let you start as a pulp/action hero.

My experience with the game has been completely different. If you start your character at the Novice level, then you're a...novice... not sure what else to say about it. If you want to play a high-level campaign, then you play a game where you start your character at a higher rank. Fairly simple.

The gameplay concept is completely different from an M&M or other d20/T20 based games. Encounters with mooks don't matter, and shouldn't. They go fast but maintain an element of danger. They sap your resources without killing you. The comment about anyone with a gun, flamethrower or bow able to kill anyone is inaccurate...or has been in my experience. Encounters with the big bad guys are memorable, difficult and require ingenuity to win rather than a doctorate degree in an arcane ruleset and access to the approved library/website/consultative expert.

Characters are built on a concept rather than a stack of stats, shortcut equipment bonuses, and poorly defined archetypes. Magic retains an element of imagination, rather than a bullet list of effects ala a card game -- if your GM is running the game correctly -- if you just wanna say "I fire Magic Missile at the darkness" then yeah, your magic experience is going to suck.

Character progression is constant and meaningful and doesn't take three different books of Powers and Stuff to accomplish. If you get a magical sword, it matters. Your character's abilities are not a spreadsheet of +/-; they are the only thing keeping you from doom. Bennies are your friend and the differentiator. The "big damn lucky hero" part of the game.

So, essentially, you're not gaming for more bonuses (stuff, powers, rule breakers), you're gaming for the wild action, character development and story. I haven't seen a game that can keep all these things balanced and still deliver a meaningful gaming experience.

And don't get me started about development. The rules get out of the way and let the GM build whatever he/she needs to deliver a meaningful gaming experience. Low cost, low time, fast and furious.

That's my experience, anyway.

 

[coyote6]

My experience with the game has been completely different. If you start your character at the Novice level, then you're a...novice... not sure what else to say about it. If you want to play a high-level campaign, then you play a game where you start your character at a higher rank. Fairly simple.

Most of the fiction I'd want to use SW to emulate doesn't feature novice protagonists, so it sets off a bit of cognitive dissonance with me that the default starting PCs aren't of equivalent competence (and apparently ValhallaGH). That's just my personal reaction, though.

(FWIW, my experience with actual play of SW has been entirely one shots with pregens -- all of which were significantly better than Novice characters.)

The gameplay concept is completely different from an M&M or other d20/T20 based games. Encounters with mooks don't matter, and shouldn't. They go fast but maintain an element of danger. They sap your resources without killing you.

Sap what resources? Bennies?

I have to disagree with your comments, though, regarding M&M or True20. These things:

Encounters with the big bad guys are memorable, difficult and require ingenuity to win rather than a doctorate degree in an arcane ruleset and access to the approved library/website/consultative expert.

Characters are built on a concept rather than a stack of stats, shortcut equipment bonuses, and poorly defined archetypes. [...]

Character progression is constant and meaningful and doesn't take three different books of Powers and Stuff to accomplish. [...]

So, essentially, you're not gaming for more bonuses (stuff, powers, rule breakers),

... don't apply to M&M, in my gaming experience, or True20, from what I've read. They may apply to D&D of various editions, but True20 and M&M are not D&D (any more than SW is, say, Deadlands or Brave New World or any of the other similar systems).

Don't get me wrong -- SW is awesome. I wouldn't have bought stuff for it (Deadlands, 50 Fathoms, and one other setting) if I didn't like it. It's one of the three or four game systems I'd really like to use for my next campaign, depending on what that campaign ends up being. I will probably house rule some bits, and I don't know if I'll dig it for extended campaigns; but for short games & one shots, it has been great fun.

I played a SW game at DunDraCon this year where the 8 PCs were squad leaders in the Space Marines -- we were decked out in heavy armor, each commanding a squad of goons. It was a blast trying to maneuver to get shots on the heavily armored enemies, toss monofilament & plasma grenades at 'em, and otherwise try to avoid being completely obliterated. I'm not sure there's another system that would've handled it as well, just using the basic rules.

 

[coyote6]

I'm having visions of an all-preschool supers group.

FWIW, the same DunDraCon with the SW Space Marines also featured an M&M game where the PCs ended up regressed to preschool age PL1 versions (remember Nanny from X-Factor, way back in the day?). That was . . . interesting.

 

[Eisenhiem]

Thanks for the replies!

The more I look at the system, the more I decide I definitely need to take advantage of the larger-scale battles you can pull off - especially as that is something I haven't gotten the chance to really play with to any satisfaction in the other games I've run.

Not to jump in or take sides in any sort of debate, but I will say:

Most of the fiction I'd want to use SW to emulate doesn't feature novice protagonists, so it sets off a bit of cognitive dissonance with me that the default starting PCs aren't of equivalent competence (and apparently ValhallaGH). That's just my personal reaction, though.

(FWIW, my experience with actual play of SW has been entirely one shots with pregens -- all of which were significantly better than Novice characters.)

I personally have never played any game (Alternity, D&D [of any edition], d20, Cyberpunk2020..and so on) that had the characters start at a level equal to the protagonists of fiction.. But I always sort of thought that was the point.. to *become* heroic.. rather than start at Awesome and work your way to ..well. More Awesome.

Actually. I will take that back. The Riddle of Steel did that very well.. but TROS, while beloved.. is a game with a sharp learning curve in combat. Amazing system, but it actually relies on the players to learn to fight well as much as the characters - which is odd, as players dont have to learn intimate knowledge of how to smith in order to do so in-game, nor the intricacies of medicine or esoteric theory in order to perform first aid or ritual magic.

BUT.. back to SW.

I'm debating what I want to do for my first run. I'm thinking about making a short-run zombie-survival campaign over a handful of sessions/adventures. Seems like just the sort of thing low-powered characters and mob combat would shine at.

I also really want, at some point, to attempt to redo one of my favorite campaigns I've ever run - a Warhammer 40K RPG based on the Inquisitor wargame rules. Oddly enough, they are vaguely similar to the way SW runs (which is unsurprising since, as I'm reading, SW was based on another miniatures wargame?)

I will say, one thing I am really liking is that it is so adaptable.. the idea that I can run campaigns I never would have thought about before simply because I didnt want to jimmie rig rules for..say.. a 1930s gangster setting, etc. for the sake of a mini-campaign, etc.

Are there any resources floating around out there aside from what's on their site? SRDs or maybe something the equivelant of the Netbook of Feats in d20? I'm noticing the plethora of edges and hinderances in each book..and how they all vary from setting to setting. Not a bad thing, but it would be nice to have a reference for the whole list.

Just thoughts..

I'm used to a more .. not robust..but.. detailed..system.. So it will be interesting to see how well this goes. I love what I'm reading so far though.

 

[coyote6]

I personally have never played any game (Alternity, D&D [of any edition], d20, Cyberpunk2020..and so on) that had the characters start at a level equal to the protagonists of fiction.. But I always sort of thought that was the point.. to *become* heroic.. rather than start at Awesome and work your way to ..well. More Awesome.

I can think of several -- M&M, GURPS, FATE/Spirit of the Century, Twilight: 2000, Traveller -- all can let you start out roughly equal to at least some fictional heroes (some are more badass than others, of course). In those systems, you can at least always build a starting character that's equal to or better than, say, the average NPC soldier or cop.

In Deadlands Reloaded, the Gunman NPC type has more attribute points than a starting PC; the officer soldier and the "LAPD" (Guardian Angels) are both beyond starting PCs. Those all seem like viable starting PC types to me for a high-action game -- gunman, Cavalry Lt., ex-cop. Even the "typical pirate" in 50 Fathoms looks to be equal to a starting PC, roughly. In a piratey game, I'd expect PCs to be better than the mook pirates.

Like I said, it's just not what I expected. Fortunately, it's easy to fix.

 

[Particle_Man]

Are there any resources floating around out there aside from what's on their site?

Savage Heroes

 

[GlassJaw]

I'm debating what I want to do for my first run. I'm thinking about making a short-run zombie-survival campaign over a handful of sessions/adventures. Seems like just the sort of thing low-powered characters and mob combat would shine at.

Very cool. If you do, check out a product called Zombie Run.

I also really want, at some point, to attempt to redo one of my favorite campaigns I've ever run - a Warhammer 40K RPG based on the Inquisitor wargame rules.

Again, if you start a campaign like this, check out the Necropolis series of products. I think it would give you a great starting point for a 40k campaign.

I also highly recommend the Pinnacle forums. The people are very helpful and the authors post a lot. And if you want to run a modern horror campaign, check out the modules by 12 to Midnight. They are some of the best-written modules I've read from any system. The authors are also very helpful and also post on the Pinnacle forums.

 

[baulderstone]

I can think of several -- M&M, GURPS, FATE/Spirit of the Century, Twilight: 2000, Traveller -- all can let you start out roughly equal to at least some fictional heroes (some are more badass than others, of course). In those systems, you can at least always build a starting character that's equal to or better than, say, the average NPC soldier or cop.

In Deadlands Reloaded, the Gunman NPC type has more attribute points than a starting PC; the officer soldier and the "LAPD" (Guardian Angels) are both beyond starting PCs. Those all seem like viable starting PC types to me for a high-action game -- gunman, Cavalry Lt., ex-cop. Even the "typical pirate" in 50 Fathoms looks to be equal to a starting PC, roughly. In a piratey game, I'd expect PCs to be better than the mook pirates.

Like I said, it's just not what I expected. Fortunately, it's easy to fix.

But, that really isn't true at all. The Gunman and typical pirate are extras. That Wild Die makes a big difference for PC's. Think of it this way: when you are generating a character, before you have even spent one point on attributes, you already have a free d6 in every single one of them due to your Wild Die. If you only buy a d4 in Vigor, you are already tougher than the Gunman, who rolls just a d6, without a Wild Die. Once you have spent all 5 of your points to raise attributes, the extra is left in the dust.

Then you you factor in bennies. Player have their own private supply. The GM probably won't spend any on a lowly mook. The Gunman will also go down after taking only one wound. The PC takes 4 wounds to put down. And even then the might stay up if they get a raise on the incapacitation roll, althought that is a long-shot.

In a one-on-one battle the Novice PC will take down the gunman almost every time.

I'll concede that characters don't start out as powerful as some of the more powerful pulp characters out there, but the game encourages starting characters at a higher rank if that fits the feel of the campaign. It's much better than the alternative, which would be a system which didn't allow you to play novice characters at all.

I think some people have a different view of pulps than I do, too. I remember them as having heroes that were tough, but still frequently took a beating, and frequently suffering temporary defeats and getting captured when out-numbered, but managing to prevail in the end. A lot of people seem to feel that pulp is all-about invincible heroes who never fail at anything.

 

[Morpheus]

One of the nice things about SW from the GM's perspective is the use of NPCs. the PCs can use allies (extras-not Wild Cards) and run them themselves-less work for the GM. Running combat is less time-consuming as there is less to keep track of for the NPCs as there are only two conditions to keep track of-Shaken or Incapacitated (and Incapacitated takes the NPC out the game). A combat that would probably take an hour or so in d20 will only take 10-20 minutes in SW. This allows more to get accomplished during a session...

 

[Pepster]

I'll just build on what others have said.

1) The Explorer's Edition doesn't have the fantasy races, but those are now covered in the new Fantasy Companion.

2) Keep in mind that the Shaken condition is binary; in other words, it's either on or off. The Shaken/Wound system seems to confuse a lot of people. Also, when opponents have ganged up on an opponent, even Shaken opponents give a gang-up bonus. I found out at Origins this past weekend I was doing it wrong.

3) Most of the complaints I've heard are that SW doesn't do Supers well, though I have also heard of ongoing Necessary Evil campaigns.

4) How about having the creator run a late night horror game for you? It was simply awesome.

Pepster