SCAG Thread

[Burticusb]

I would actually like your suggestion. If every DM could come to the table and make very similar conclusions about what is legal on the fly at the game table, then there wouldn't be a problem and this rule would be unnecessary. However, I don't think that's possible so we would have to go with a lot of back and forth, lists of unwanted combo's, and some grief as character builds are forced to change, on an increasing basis. Then there would also be the debates back and forth about what should be excluded or allowed at every line item on any list. Then of course there are the actual broken games that will happen because no one will know all the issues without some of them hitting the table.

Then before you know it we are right back to the issues the fore mentioned rule is trying to prevent.

Or the game could forgo all that and every event would have to include an increasing amount of time before play of DM's going over peoples log sheets and character sheets. Stars forbid if the DM disagrees with a prior DM's decision to the point that the player will have to rebuild their character in detail. I would not like that one bit. I also think the number of new DM's stepping up to run would decrease rapidly as more and more is added to the rules base.

As to what could happen with unintended rules consequences? I really can't say. At least without a fair bit of play testing, and then we're right back where we started, lists, rebuilds, increasingly rapid changing rulings, and diminishing returns as more books appear.

I do appreciate the work that the volunteers put in to run the AL, I can't thank them enough, I hope they think it's worth it. I also think many of them are experienced with the management of organized play and didn't make this decision lightly.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's a magic bullet, but I do think it's wise.

Okay, let me start by stating that like I mentioned earlier, I totally appreciate all the work the Adventurer's League and it's volunteers do. I mean the amount of time and dedication that you folks give is huge and you truly deserve recognition for it.

When I said hasty I did not mean that this decision was made with less care, or even that the decision was made quickly, nor lightly. I can only imagine a large group of folks in a dimly lit room pouring over papers, with various d&d books spread all over the table. Then up on the large white board there are many notes of various broken build ideas and such. The room sticks of too many non-showered individuals with random old pizza boxes left to bear, that single slice still staring at everyone in the room with shame. Days went by, and many folks forgot what life was like outside of that room... and this was the best solution that they could come up with. Like you said its not a bad solution, and it in fact solves many issues with just one ruling.

However, if I can play devils advocate here for a moment... what shall we do when say WoTC releases The Shinning South Adventurer's Guide, or the The Sea of Fallen Stars Adventurer's Guide, and then they drop that hugely awaited and coveted item, Pools of Radiance and then Ruins of Myth Drannor, or better yet, Under Mountain...

Your going to tell me that, even though all of those things which are just full of creative ideas should be kept separate to keep folks from breaking the game.

As it has been pointed out, there are already broken builds, but non of them come even close to aforementioned "Pun Pun"

Now, lets ask the real question, why is that?

Because this time around WoTC built this edition with some fantastic ground rules. With the foundation so solidly in place, it is so hard to really break this game it is near impossible, and sure it can be done, but I bet even with all of those new guide books you will still only have a handful at best.

What is that solid foundation? Well, I'm glad you asked... Lets start with Action economy, you only ever get 1 Action, 1 Move Action, and 1 Bonus Action. That's it... sure there are a few exceptions where a specific rule overrides the general, but it is quite rare, and typically comes with its own cost. For example Haste... which leads me to my next ground rule, Concentration... if there was one thing WoTC did right this edition is make Concentration a huge deal. Nothing has put them arcanist's in their place as solidly as concentration has in this edition. And finally, the grand daddy of all of the ruling Bounded accuracy, this alone makes it near impossible for someone to "break" the game.

So, what the main issue I am seeing, is we have too many folks looking at this with rose tinted lenses who remember this horrible problem that they had during 3.5e...

This is a different game, there are already solid rules in place to inhibit those who want to break the game. I just don't see a lot of need for arbitration, especially at the level that is being used.

I mean, we could still tell DM's to allow everything, but watch for broken builds... truly broken builds... not just builds that are "strong".

Then they can submit a "bug report" and that build can be added to the no fly builds... if it is truly deemed broken... this alleviates a large amount of the burden from the Play Testers and there could be just one document with rulings...

Seems simple, because it is...

Again, I understand this ruling, and in the AL's current mindset, yup, it's likely the best option... but it doesn't have to be. And to be honest, I only see this becoming a bigger problem.

I mean, this is likely the first of many realm specific splat books... and we are already on Page 26 in discussing this ruling.

Can you imagine the outcry when those other books come out.

I totally understand keeping season books seperate, OotA, ToD, and EE... but these books are meant to be core. And should be treated as such...

Again, just my few... heck we are up to silver pieces now. lol

 

[tila]

I'm just saying making arbitrary rules for arbitrary reasons doesn't lend itself to an inclusive experience.

People who want to power game will, and to be honest the more you tighten them down, the more they will seek a way to do it.

It is not arbitrary at all. Just because you don't agree with or know why it is done, doesn't automatically mean it is arbitrary.

The game designers at WotC have looked at what causes power creep. They have made it clear that they want to keep power creep out of an organized play campaign seeing that it then becomes increasing hard to design adventurers that can challenge the power gamers and not kill those that do not create characters that way. A well designed game caters to ALL types of players. So limiting use of SOME of the extra content will keep the game fun for everyone.

I also, strongly disagree with power gamers will power game statement. If a power gamers does not have the resources to create a power character, without cheating they cannot create it.

 

[Burticusb]

It is not arbitrary at all. Just because you don't agree with or know why it is done, doesn't automatically mean it is arbitrary.

The game designers at WotC have looked at what causes power creep. They have made it clear that they want to keep power creep out of an organized play campaign seeing that it then becomes increasing hard to design adventurers that can challenge the power gamers and not kill those that do not create characters that way. A well designed game caters to ALL types of players. So limiting use of SOME of the extra content will keep the game fun for everyone.

I also, strongly disagree with power gamers will power game statement. If a power gamers does not have the resources to create a power character, without cheating they cannot create it.

I can understand you trying to defend the decision that was made here, but that first sentence was made because no one had yet explained to me the reasons behind it.

Now, I don't think it's arbitrary anymore, but I still think it is a wasted venture... which leads me to your second statement.

Which is wrong, I'd try to soften that, but the fact is, there already exists rules in just the PHB that allows one to power game if they so wish.

By separating the core rules you are really only restricting creativity, there may be ways for folks to break the rules. However, that already exists in just one rulebook.

The power creep was already reduced by the foundation of Bounded Accuracy, Action Economy, and Concentration.

And that's just three of the brick and mortar rules that are in place no matter what book you use.

Again, the mentality that by "allowing options not play tested with a mixture of books is a gateway to the community to start power gaming" is an archaic way of thinking.

That indeed was the case back in the days of 3.5, but again, back then they did not have the great foundations that 5e has put in place.

Some characters will be stronger builds, that has always been the case with any role-playing game.

If my character is a basic fighter and I'm running around with a wizard and we both are level 10, you bet I expect to be less powerful then he is, by a long shot even.

It's not power gaming, it basic roles of the game in which this thing is based upon.

 

[Pauper]

Feats are the exception, but we've seen zero new feats since launch.

There's actually a feat in SCAG for deep gnomes.

*sunglasses*

--
Pauper

 

[kalani]

That same feat is found in the EEPC as well.

 

[Tia Nadiezja]

There's actually a feat in SCAG for deep gnomes.

*sunglasses*

--
Pauper

One new feat. Sandboxed to a single race. My overall point stands.

 

[Burticusb]

Well, I think we have reached a good spot, I feel good about this...

I feel the silence is a pretty telling sign that really, my points are valid.

I'm not trying to tell you guys how to run this thing... it's just my gut tells me this is the wrong way to do this. And I always go with my gut...

So, let's just throw some more kindling on the fire shall we. So, I run an AL game at my store, and I'm struggling to get new players... but hey never fear, a new book is about to be released and that is bound to bring in new prospects into the store.

So, a guy shows up to purchase SCAG, and he comes over to my table as I run the few players I have. He gets all excited, and watches us play for a bit, he is a little apprehensive as most new players get. I suddenly get up and with a warm inviting smile I introduce myself to him, and tell him he is welcome to join us. He gets excited, I tell him he can just grab a pregen or he can make a new one quick. He opts to grab the pregen since I explained that he can change him anytime up to level 4. Well, he plays and has a great time, and says you bet I'll be back next week. However during the break he decides to make his own character and comes up with this awesome creative idea of Air Gensai Stormlord... sure, mechanically its subpar, but he loves the concept. He shows up next game with character in hand all excited. I find out what he wants to play and have to explain to him, as nicely as I can that this build is not legal in AL, and I offer other suggestions, but suddenly he gets upset. And says, well I guess if the AL is so uptight about this kind of stuff I'll just go back to pathfinder so I can play what I want...

Look, I know that this a pretty exaggerated example, but it's one that could realistically happen. And it will happen more and more as these types of core books get released.

My point is, these are core books, and they should be considered compatible with all of the seasonal books. It just makes sense, and really it's simpler...

So, the question that comes next, does any of this matter... or is all of this falling on deaf ears... And what is done is done? I mean, does the AL hear the concerns I'm noting, or is this a complete waste of my time...

If so, then I'm done, I don't need a sounding board, I want to see change...

...but if all we are going to get is the company line message over and over, then I would rather waste my time on other distractions...

Or is everyone just playing Fallout 4 like I should be, lol

 

[darjr]

Well, I think we have reached a good spot, I feel good about this...

I feel the silence is a pretty telling sign that really, my points are valid.

It doesn't mean that at all.

 

[Burticusb]

It doesn't mean that at all.

Bwahahaha! I figured, it was more to just break the silence. I get you, people are likely just tired of this topic and want it to just go away.

I guess I could just let it go, and again, the funny part is, right now it doesn't affect me in the least... but I fear it soon will. And I guess I just want make my case crystal clear...

Going to bed now, good night all, and happy gaming!

 

[Tyranthraxus]

Dude, If I want the topic to go away i could just press that button that says Ignore Burticusb, much easier.