D&D 4E Scale and facing in 4e?

[UngainlyTitan]

I see no reason to change scale, and if as pointed out by an earlier post, there are going to be 3.5 and 4.0 compatible minis then that implies there is no change in scale, as for facing again I see no reason for anything more complex than currently required where facing comes in to adjudicating when someone is flanked.

 

[Branduil]

There's no reason to have facing in abstract D&D combat.

 

[The Souljourner]

I gotta disagree with you there. I never found facing complex, nor have I ever met anyone who thought it was too complex. The usual complaints about facing that I recall were always along the lines of "Why the hell can't I turn to face him for a freaking minuete!?!" And I think the concept of the immediate action solves that problem neatly. "Any time a new opponent threatens your space in melee you may take an immediate action to change your facing." Well... immediate actions and the fact that the 1 min combat round is dead and buried.

Does anyone think that's too complex?

Dude, you just added like 4 new rules to D&D right there, and there's a ton of other ones that facing implies. Yes, I think that's too complex. Facing doesn't add anything to the game, and it makes it much more annoying to play with or without minis.

-Nate

 

[Umbran]

As a concept, facing isn't complex. As a rule, though, it is one more bit that has to be dealt with on the table. While I find minis to be a great way to clarify some things about a combat, if I want to get into the nitty-gritty of a wargame, I'll play a wargame.

I hope my D&D combats play out as dramatic scenes, not as bean-counting scenes. I find facing to be a bean to count, not a dramatic point.

 

[DethStryke]

Star Wars SAGA is the example I would point out where I think this is going - Nothing has facing. Whether you are flat-footed determines where you can be sneak-attacked, not the direction where the attack is coming from.

Additionally, no facing applying to the vehicles/spaceships ==(?) dragons. It would be considered to be able to get into position to make an attack at any time. I expect balance points to make this work rather than trying to figure out flanks and quadrants. Things along the line of how many attacks of one type can they do, or that the same creature cannot be targeted by both attacks (tail & breath, in this case) in the same round, etc.

<armchairdesigner>
At some point though, the realism has to go out before the cinematic. It *may* be possible that one system will serve the heroic fantasy crowd and the realistic fantasy crowd (oxy-moron?), but I doubt 4e will be it and personally I don't think I would want it to.

Let me be clear, what makes a thrilling movie doesn't usually have much to do with how things work in real life... however, I still want to see it in my fiction, be it movie, book or RPG!
</armchairdesigner>

 

[Snapdragyn]

Facing not only adds more complexity, it also shifts the balance of value of rules that already exist.

Example: Cleave. Without facing, you just take a swing at another adjacent foe. With facing, you have to worry about where that foe is, thus lessening Cleave's value by the additional of a situational variable.

Tried it. Hated it. Blegh.

 

[Andor]

...but ...but ...I'm getting really sick of 10' wide horses...

 

[DethStryke]

Facing not only adds more complexity, it also shifts the balance of value of rules that already exist.

Example: Cleave. Without facing, you just take a swing at another adjacent foe. With facing, you have to worry about where that foe is, thus lessening Cleave's value by the additional of a situational variable.

Tried it. Hated it. Blegh.

This is the prime reason you have to design the game and the complete balance there-of with concepts like "no facing" a part of it from the start. Pulling it out otherwise always leaves a gaping balance wound of some sort, as you readily point out.

 

[Snapdragyn]

...but ...but ...I'm getting really sick of 10' wide horses...

As opposed to horses that conduct combat on a fencing mat or wearing magnetically polarized horseshoes? "Whoa, Nelly, we can't turn in place during combat! Why, that's just crazy talk, ya fool horse!

Hrm, I think I just thought of a koan. How does one execute a roundhouse kick in a game using facing?

 

[Aus_Snow]

Facing. That would make me see 4e in a slightly more favourable light, if anything.

Pity it probably won't happen.