Scaling Keep on the Shadowfell (spoilers)

[Echoes]

So, looking over my copy of Keep on the Shadowfell, I am faced with a bit of a problem. My gaming group includes 4 PCs and myself (the DM), and I know that scaling KotS should theoretically be easy -- "just remove one monster or four minions."

However, the way I see it, some encounters should be fine with 4 PCs versus 5 -- just harder. And on certain encounters, I don't want to lose the "flavor" as written -- for example, just removing some minions in a fight that is meant to have a good number of them.

However, if I run most of the encounters as written, and use only one of the plot hooks, the PCs will end up with somewhere in the neighborhood of 5,000 XP each, which I fear might be too much too fast, consdering I'd like to run this as a lead in to H2. There's also the whole, well, TPK thing to consider.

Does anyone have any thoughts on where it might be best to scale things down without losing too much? I am going to do another read through of the adventure tonight and will post my own thoughts a bit later on this evening, but if any of you are contemplating similar dilemmas (and I'm sure there are some of you doing so!), post away so we can compare strategies!

One particular encounter I'm worried about is the [sblock] Blue Slime. I'll probably be looking at 4 level 2 characters trying to take on this thing, and from my perspective it just looks pretty rough. Then again so do several other encounters -- perhaps just because it's easy to visualize how I can deviously utilize the monsters and am not taking into account the no-doubt brilliant strategies my PCs will think up. [/sblock]

 

[OchreJelly]

I too am interested in getting some advice on those that have run this. Where would the trouble spots lie for a party of four? I used to be pretty good at adjusting encounters on the fly, but 4E is an entirely different beast.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

I have the other problem—my Friday group can reach up to 10+ people at times (when all can attend). How does 4e work scaling upward? What about scaling up Quest XP?

 

[KidSnide]

For the fights with solo monsters, I would just reduce the level of the monster by one. Subtract 1 from the monster's attack bonus, AC and defense values and then subtract 24-30 hit points. If that's not enough, double that and also reduce the damage on the monster's attacks by 1 (this reduces the monster by 2 levels). You then reduce the XP granted by the monster accordingly.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080418a

 

[Rzach]

My group only has three players currently. I am allowing my players to use the two extra characters as npc's who journey with the group. Each of these "npc" characters is controlled by a player during combat. Outside of combat they don't really matter much. They can contribute more if the players feel like rping them but I am not worried about it.

Later,
Rzach

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I've got six players running through it and we've already been playing for a month, so we'll be starting at level 2.

Scaling is generally EASY in 4E.

Level 1 characters are worth 100xp each, level 2 125, level 3 150.

So if you have 3 level 1's you balance at 300 xp. My group balances at the beginning of the adventure at 750xp (6 x 125).

Balance means that the PCs will win, even if they roll bad and suck at tactics, barring something going really, really wrong. A party is pretty "safe" to handle about half again their "balance" value if they start firing off their dailies and don't roll for crap, and if they're lucky they MAY make it through double, but they have to roll better or have great tactics at that point. Above double the DM is doing something wrong if he doesn't kill most the party.

SO for encounters of multiple opponents it's really really easy. Check what the encounter total is (listed at the beginning of the encounter) and add or subtract a few creatures to bring it closer to whet you need. Keep in mind that the adventure begins "balanced" for 500xp. So if they made it more than that they were meaning for a tough fight there.

Does anyone want me to give specific examples? Pick an encounter and let me know your party size and level & I'll tell you specifically how.

Fitz

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I have the other problem—my Friday group can reach up to 10+ people at times (when all can attend). How does 4e work scaling upward? What about scaling up Quest XP?

Ten would be easy. Double the numbers in every encounter. Double the Quest XP.

For encounters involving special individuals (who you can't just "twin") add extras of the tougher henchmen until you equal the boss's XP and double everyone else.

EDIT: This would get crowded in the Keep's corridors, but there's no maps provided, so you can increase the size of the rooms and halls (I wouldn't double THEM, but maybe half again.)

Fitz

 

[Echoes]

Well I went through the adventure really quickly to see where I could scale things down. and it was pretty easy.

First I figured that for all the encounters leading up to the keep itself, the players would be level 1, and that those encounters plus the Missing Mentor hook would bring them up to level 2. Then they would be level 2 until approximately somewhere around areas 9-11 in the keep itself, at which point they'd hit level 3. So I did my balancing around 400 xp/500 xp/600 xp at those starting points.

Aside from the crushing defeat of having to remove up to 4 minions from an encounter I think things went generally well. I hope I don't have to fudge any of the solos or elites when it comes down to it.

The only encoutners that I still feel might be a problem are the Kruthik encounter (I removed 3 hatchlings and 1 young kruthik, but if the PCs are still level 2 they are in a bit over their heads), and the final encounter. Even after removing one of the skeletons, the ecounter is still 1,200 XP, double their balance number of 600. Additionally, I was stuck with the choice between nerfing Kalarel (which I don't want to do since he's the BBEG, after all), or removing a skeleton, neither of which were appealing choices for tactical reasons. I think it may be necessary to tone down Kal or the other undead in the room to make this encounter survivable.

All in all, I ended up removing roughly 3,000 - 4,000 xp worth of monsters from the adventure as a whole (and also nerfing the traps a little, reducing their xp). Any thoughts on specific places you guys see as problem areas that I didn't highlight, or suggestions for what particular monsters to remove/tone down a bit?

 

[Stalker0]

For the fights with solo monsters, I would just reduce the level of the monster by one. Subtract 1 from the monster's attack bonus, AC and defense values and then subtract 24-30 hit points.

I've run a fair amount of pregen combat, and let me say that even a small adjustment in a creature's defenses can have a pretty big impact on the combat. So for those solo guys, really a point or two is all you may need.

As for the party of 10+ guys, I would not suggest just doubling the numbers. There comes a point when the system starts to get clunky. Running 20 guys at once will start to drag on the fight imo. Instead, you might consider adding in a solo monster here or there, as those count as 5 guys.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

well, if the guy's used to running for 10+ players, he either knows how to keep things moving, or is used to it being slow. I expect a bit of both. I agree that it would be BETTER to toughen up some of them rather than doubling it all, but what I meant was the EASIEST way was to double 'em. It's like running two parties through it at the same time. I wouldn't call it the system that gets "clunky" with too many guys so much as it requires certain skills as a DM to field that many monsters. It's generally better to avoid, but not really impossible.

However, it's also true that it's not terribly difficult to scale 'em a bit. Make a few elites (give 'em +1 to everything, double their HP & XP and give 'em an action point ought to do it.)

I've run 18 sessions of 4E now including all the demos, and I've made over 25 original monsters. (which reminds me I should look back at 'em and update them for what I know now...)

As far as Echoes' question on other trouble spots:

The Kobold Lair encounter is pretty huge, especially at level one, but it comes with it's own solution (for the most part) in that it has half the monsters wait three rounds before joining the fray. Seeing as most of the first group are minions, the party should be very close to done mopping them up before taking on the next "wave". It's still a tough fight for sure, but this is another way to tone down a tough encounter.

You could use this for Kalarel. Instead of being ready to fight the party when they come down the chains, he could still be three rounds away from even being able to stop what he's up to to fight back. Just have him defend himself for a few rounds, chanting while the party fights the skeletons and wight. The Thing won't even be there until he's done. Obviously he still doesn't complete the WHOLE ritual by the time he gives up to fight the party, but he gets to a point he can stop to try to take care of the invaders.

Fitz