Scaling the Complete Psychic's Handbook...

[Raduin711]

One of my favorite products from Green Ronin was the Complete Psychic's handbook. I have never been completely satisfied with 3rd edition psionics- it just doesn't feel right. Psychic powers should feel like the next step in the evolution of mankind, not like a new and improved magic system. Rays of "acid energy"? Really? With psychic powers?

But my problem with the complete psychic handbook that I have is that I would like to use it in a 3rd edition Dark Sun game, and I am afraid that it wouldn't scale well with magic. Are there any suggestions on what I can do to get the two systems on the same level? That is, either beefing up psychics or toning down magic?

Also, I would like to recreate the telepathic combats described in Troy Denning's books. The rules for psychic grappling come close, but aren't quite what I have in mind. If you are familiar with what I am talking about, let me know if you have any ideas.

 

[Celebrim]

I've never really liked the idea of 'psionics' in any setting, wether fantasy or science fiction.

I've always felt that 'psionics' are just magic dressed up in a very very thin veneer of psuedo-science. If the setting is fantasy, the presence of 'psionics' feels redundant to me. If the settng is science fiction, the presence of psionics feels unnatural and hypocritical to me.

If a player wanted to play a 'psionicist', I'd point them at the Sorcerer class and say, "This is a pretty generic tool. Pick some spells that are appropriate to how you envision your character." I could probably even be convinced to come up with some feat trees and/or spells that would make their character concept more interesting or viable.

All that being said, I fully agree with you that the 2nd and 3rd edition psionics books left alot to be desired from a flavor standpoint. There are things that its generally accepted that psionics can do, and there are things its generally accepted that it cannot - although, this line is pretty blurry, as witness Stephen King's 'Fire Starter'. (Again, this is the reason why I think the Sorcerer is a far better fit than anything we could come up with, as it let's the player rather than the DM be the judge of what is appropriate to the character.) Still, I agree that despite the blurriness of the line, bolts of acidic energy are definately on the wrong side of it.

I suspect that you are going to be unhappy with my suggestion that Sorcerers make better psionicists than any other class (including psions), even though it addresses the question 'How do I make the two systems on the same level?' in what I consider to be far and away the most elegant fashion, so until you come to that realization yourself, I'm happy to help you with any design problem you are having.

My first suggestion would be pick up a copy of the 1st edition PH (still the best resource flavorwise) and copy of the 2nd edition Complete Psionics Handbook. Collect together the powers that you think have the right feel, and discard those powers that you don't think have the right feel. Adapt them to the 3.5 edition Psion, and drop any 3.5 edition powers you feel don't have the right flavor. I don't think you'll need to do much beefing up of the 3.5 Psion, as the general concensus is that it is at minimum as powerful as a cleric or wizard, and probably slightly more powerful.

Personally, I think that psionic points are problimatic. The 1st edition psionist escapes the problem by not being a class and not being meant to compete on the same level as magic. He doesn't learn, expand, or develop his repetoire and so he doesn't need to worry about balancing defensive, offensive, and utility powers. He has what he has. The powers he possesses are merely random boons, and sometimes a curse (when facing a more powerful psionic creature, he may be dead before the rest of the party can react), so the fact that they aren't balanced isn't even an issue. The problem with points is that it encourages 'Alpha Strikes' where you dump all your points into the repeated application of your most powerful abilities. This turns into the infamous '15 minute adventuring day' faster than even the most spellbound wizard.

Psionic combat existed in 1st edition DMG and was almost certainly the inspiration for Troy Dennings telepathic combat (since he started out as a D&D writer). There was a quite detailed system, although I never had recourse to use the rules, as in 15 years of DMing, I never once had a psionic 1st edition player character. My appraisal of the rules though they are quite evocative, they wouldn't be much fun in actual play. Psionic combat occurred as an in round subsystem which used a much faster time scale. The result would be that two psionicists would enter combat at the beginning of the round, engage in several rounds of draining each others points off - and quite possibly the weaker of the two would die or go insane, before anyone else in the party would get a chance to move.

 

[Raduin711]

I've never really liked the idea of 'psionics' in any setting, wether fantasy or science fiction.

I've always felt that 'psionics' are just magic dressed up in a very very thin veneer of psuedo-science. If the setting is fantasy, the presence of 'psionics' feels redundant to me. If the settng is science fiction, the presence of psionics feels unnatural and hypocritical to me.

If a player wanted to play a 'psionicist', I'd point them at the Sorcerer class and say, "This is a pretty generic tool. Pick some spells that are appropriate to how you envision your character." I could probably even be convinced to come up with some feat trees and/or spells that would make their character concept more interesting or viable.

All that being said, I fully agree with you that the 2nd and 3rd edition psionics books left alot to be desired from a flavor standpoint. There are things that its generally accepted that psionics can do, and there are things its generally accepted that it cannot - although, this line is pretty blurry, as witness Stephen King's 'Fire Starter'. (Again, this is the reason why I think the Sorcerer is a far better fit than anything we could come up with, as it let's the player rather than the DM be the judge of what is appropriate to the character.) Still, I agree that despite the blurriness of the line, bolts of acidic energy are definately on the wrong side of it.

I suspect that you are going to be unhappy with my suggestion that Sorcerers make better psionicists than any other class (including psions), even though it addresses the question 'How do I make the two systems on the same level?' in what I consider to be far and away the most elegant fashion, so until you come to that realization yourself, I'm happy to help you with any design problem you are having.

My first suggestion would be pick up a copy of the 1st edition PH (still the best resource flavorwise) and copy of the 2nd edition Complete Psionics Handbook. Collect together the powers that you think have the right feel, and discard those powers that you don't think have the right feel. Adapt them to the 3.5 edition Psion, and drop any 3.5 edition powers you feel don't have the right flavor. I don't think you'll need to do much beefing up of the 3.5 Psion, as the general concensus is that it is at minimum as powerful as a cleric or wizard, and probably slightly more powerful.

Personally, I think that psionic points are problimatic. The 1st edition psionist escapes the problem by not being a class and not being meant to compete on the same level as magic. He doesn't learn, expand, or develop his repetoire and so he doesn't need to worry about balancing defensive, offensive, and utility powers. He has what he has. The powers he possesses are merely random boons, and sometimes a curse (when facing a more powerful psionic creature, he may be dead before the rest of the party can react), so the fact that they aren't balanced isn't even an issue. The problem with points is that it encourages 'Alpha Strikes' where you dump all your points into the repeated application of your most powerful abilities. This turns into the infamous '15 minute adventuring day' faster than even the most spellbound wizard.

Psionic combat existed in 1st edition DMG and was almost certainly the inspiration for Troy Dennings telepathic combat (since he started out as a D&D writer). There was a quite detailed system, although I never had recourse to use the rules, as in 15 years of DMing, I never once had a psionic 1st edition player character. My appraisal of the rules though they are quite evocative, they wouldn't be much fun in actual play. Psionic combat occurred as an in round subsystem which used a much faster time scale. The result would be that two psionicists would enter combat at the beginning of the round, engage in several rounds of draining each others points off - and quite possibly the weaker of the two would die or go insane, before anyone else in the party would get a chance to move.

Thanks for the reply.

The Sorcerer solution is certainly balanced. However I am running Dark Sun, which means that most everybody is going to have limited psychic power, and I would rather not nitpick spell choices for not being "psionic" enough. Psionicists would boil down to a Sorcerer with fewer choices... while the end result would be balanced... seems messy.

I was rather surprised to learn that pyrokinesis was a complete invention of Stephen King's. Go him.

Anyway, thanks for pointing me to the 1st edition heads up. Could you clarify what the PH is? Psionics Handbook or Player's Handbook? That was a bit before my time. I had the 2nd edition Complete Psionicist's Handbook, which was very cool but very strange. I think it was that strangeness that helped make it feel different from magic.

Maybe this will help define a little bit what I want...

I wrote a sci-fi story where I divided psychics into the following types:

Pyrokinetics: The most destructive psychics, but probably the least versatile. Not good for much other than burning things.

Biokinetics: Seems a tad out of place, but this would cover applications of mind over body, that is, accomplishing amazing bodily feats thanks to intense concentration. Their control of other people's biology is limited, and even then requires touch.

Telekinetics: Nearly as destructive as Pyrokinetics, but also quite versatile. Shields, throwing things, lifting heavy objects, and levitation.

Telepaths: Use the mind to connect and control the mind. In Dark Sun, every psionicist should have enough grasp of telepathy to defend themselves in psychic combat, but Telepaths would excel at it. Also for communication and mind reading.

ESPers: Having perceptions beyond normal ability. Being able to see far away places and sense things that others can't. Abilities of precognition and postcognition would fit into this category as well. I could see talented espers going so far as having psychoportation applications as well.

I also had Electrokinetics, which don't quite fit into dark sun, and Mediums, which shared some powers with Espers, where Mediums took the spiritual side (it was questionable whether they could do anything at all, until you saw for yourself) while Espers were more rooted in real phenomenon, and the distinction is somewhat blurrier in a game like D&D.

Anyway, my ideal system would involve these types, but beggars can't be choosers.

 

[glass]

Anyway, thanks for pointing me to the 1st edition heads up. Could you clarify what the PH is? Psionics Handbook or Player's Handbook? That was a bit before my time.

Mine too, but I'm pretty sure it Player's Handbook. IIRC, there wasn't a Psionics Handbook for 1e, psionics were in the core.

I had the 2nd edition Complete Psionicist's Handbook, which was very cool but very strange. I think it was that strangeness that helped make it feel different from magic.

AFAIK, the 2e version was basically an expansion of the 1e version, so if you know the 2e version you are good on that score. I liked the strangeness and the difference from magic of the 2e version too; shame about the balance!


glass.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

But my problem with the complete psychic handbook that I have is that I would like to use it in a 3rd edition Dark Sun game, and I am afraid that it wouldn't scale well with magic. Are there any suggestions on what I can do to get the two systems on the same level? That is, either beefing up psychics or toning down magic?

Well I personally would hit it from a different direction...
RPGNow.com - Misfit Studios - Unusual Core Classes: The Spellweaver

So, what it does is it makes magic into a skill-based system. As a bonus, it includes all the SRD spells converted over for you. Hard to go wrong and it explains how to convert any other spells over to use the same system.

You can do spot checks to see how certain spells stack up to psychic powers. If you don't like it, shift the skill check on one or the other.

Personally, I go for the easy approach. If you want to go the route suggested by Celebrim, knock yourself out. You can probably get the books fom rpgnow, they've got a bunch of the old stuff converted over into pdf form there.

Edit: It should go without saying, but I'll be explicit... you don't actually have to convert the magic system. All you're concerned about is the relative power. So you can spot-check that easily and decide if you need to adjust your psionics.

Additionally, you can turn around and put _some_ of the magic over as a skill thing. This can help shift problematical spells out of the range of normal casters. It also means that if there's a spell kicking around that you think would work well for the psychics, you can do a relatively easy conversion.

It also shouldn't be too difficult to rip from the 3rd Ed psionic and convert it over to the skill based approach of the Green Ronin book. Just be consistent in how you assign the spell cost modifiers to the spells...I mean "psionics"... from whatever source you're using.

$6 and I think you've got an easy way to tweak things the way you want.

 

[Greg K]

One of my favorite products from Green Ronin was the Complete Psychic's handbook.

It is just Psychic's Handbook. No Complete in the title.

Btw, good question. I haven't read the Dark Sun books in a while, but I have The Will and the Way, one of the boxed sets, and maybe, the 2e psionics book (if it was on the 2e CD collection). If I get a chance, I will go thorugh everything and see if I can provide suggestions.

 

[rgard]

Mine too, but I'm pretty sure it Player's Handbook. IIRC, there wasn't a Psionics Handbook for 1e, psionics were in the core.

AFAIK, the 2e version was basically an expansion of the 1e version, so if you know the 2e version you are good on that score. I liked the strangeness and the difference from magic of the 2e version too; shame about the balance!


glass.

The 1e Players Handbook had the psionics system in the back as an appendix, just before or just after the bard (proto prc) class.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Raduin711]

Well I personally would hit it from a different direction...
RPGNow.com - Misfit Studios - Unusual Core Classes: The Spellweaver

So, what it does is it makes magic into a skill-based system. As a bonus, it includes all the SRD spells converted over for you. Hard to go wrong and it explains how to convert any other spells over to use the same system.

You can do spot checks to see how certain spells stack up to psychic powers. If you don't like it, shift the skill check on one or the other.

Personally, I go for the easy approach. If you want to go the route suggested by Celebrim, knock yourself out. You can probably get the books fom rpgnow, they've got a bunch of the old stuff converted over into pdf form there.

Edit: It should go without saying, but I'll be explicit... you don't actually have to convert the magic system. All you're concerned about is the relative power. So you can spot-check that easily and decide if you need to adjust your psionics.

Additionally, you can turn around and put _some_ of the magic over as a skill thing. This can help shift problematical spells out of the range of normal casters. It also means that if there's a spell kicking around that you think would work well for the psychics, you can do a relatively easy conversion.

It also shouldn't be too difficult to rip from the 3rd Ed psionic and convert it over to the skill based approach of the Green Ronin book. Just be consistent in how you assign the spell cost modifiers to the spells...I mean "psionics"... from whatever source you're using.

$6 and I think you've got an easy way to tweak things the way you want.

I looked at the previews for that, and it looks interesting. How do you think the spellweaver and the and the wizard compare? Because if they are roughly the same, I might just use a tweaked Spellweaver for psionics instead of the Psychic's Handbook. I kind of like the idea of psionics using a skill-based system, but using both may be too much.

 

[Raduin711]

It is just Psychic's Handbook. No Complete in the title.

Btw, good question. I haven't read the Dark Sun books in a while, but I have The Will and the Way, one of the boxed sets, and maybe, the 2e psionics book (if it was on the 2e CD collection). If I get a chance, I will go thorugh everything and see if I can provide suggestions.

Ah, thanks, it would be appreciated. =]

The 1e Players Handbook had the psionics system in the back as an appendix, just before or just after the bard (proto prc) class.

Thanks,
Rich

Much appreciated.

 

[TheWyrd]

It's probably worth noting that Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook is more or less the baseline of what became the magic system in Green Ronin's Blue Rose/True20 and later what evolved into True Sorcerery.

The 1e Psionics system was basically a roll to see if you've won the lottery sort of thing. All of it was completely random and your chances improved slightly for having high mental traits (like going from 1% chance to 3% chance). You got essentially a 1/day-ish power that was likely to be something like 'walk on quicksand' or astral projection and basically became a magnet for a thousand and 1 critters who wanted to suck on your brain. It was like a giant bullseye.

2e kept the roll for a 1/day power and introduced a class that gets a bunch of those powers. The powers were 2e skill (non-weapon profieceny) based. So a telepathy power might be Int-3 with a roll under mechanic to get it to work. Roll exactly the target number and you get a bonus. Roll a (1 or a 20 I forget) and you fry your brain or another power specific penalty. The power level was such that you could get really powerful effects early with the suicide level intended as a balance.

Skills and Feats Psionics Systems seem to be intuitively how people want psionics to work in d20. There is the Psychic's Handbook, Ken Hood's system (along with a similar and linked Martial arts system), Craft of the Mind (which takes its cues from Star Wars D20), and probably a few others. The psychic's handbook has the benefit of being a published book and having a number of customizable items in the back. For a DarkSun game, I would say that you can use the system at its base. My feeling is that in DarkSun psionics are less powerful than Magic but also more common. Having it be feat/skill, its fairly easy to give any old fighter at least one psionic trick that he can use every so often.

If you're finding that its getting abused, there is always the option of adding in one of the limiters like a fatique save or ability damage. Fatique is probably the worst I would do for a DarkSun game however.