Schrodinger's HP and Combat

[Manbearcat]

The disease track is something I really want to experiment with in greater depth in my own hack. For various reasons I'm in a bit of a bind as to how to proceed with it due to certain design decisions which militate against numeric penalties as a standard part of the thing. I'll figure out something interesting though. I'd really like to see it become a whole other aspect of the game that the characters have to think about and deal with.

Another poster that I like to read that doesn't post enough anymore!

The great thing about 4e is that there are so many levers to pull and buttons to push. And its quite intuitive what the impact will be because the system is so mathematically transparent. If you just use healing surges and - 2 to various defenses or skills as punishment for the Disease Track, you're going to have exciting, scary results that don't bog the game down.

The greatest opportunities that 4e had (mechanically) to be even more awesomerererer was the default game being more Healing Surge intensive, a robust Healing Surge economy (perhaps whereby players can cash in a surge for a bonus but risk a system specified complication), and the xp system really pushing play toward risky, swashbuckley heroics (eg rewarding failure and stunting) and tightly coupled to players' themes, paragon paths, and epic destinies. The Quest system did a great job with the latter part, but it could have gone further.

There was also a large opportunity area to synch the mechanics (PC-build side and general resolution mechanics) of noncombat conflict resolution and combat resolution.

If I could have a D&D 4.5, those would be at the top of my wishlist.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Another poster that I like to read that doesn't post enough anymore!

The great thing about 4e is that there are so many levers to pull and buttons to push. And its quite intuitive what the impact will be because the system is so mathematically transparent. If you just use healing surges and - 2 to various defenses or skills as punishment for the Disease Track, you're going to have exciting, scary results that don't bog the game down.

The greatest opportunities that 4e had (mechanically) to be even more awesomerererer was the default game being more Healing Surge intensive, a robust Healing Surge economy (perhaps whereby players can cash in a surge for a bonus but risk a system specified complication), and the xp system really pushing play toward risky, swashbuckley heroics (eg rewarding failure and stunting) and tightly coupled to players' themes, paragon paths, and epic destinies. The Quest system did a great job with the latter part, but it could have gone further.

There was also a large opportunity area to synch the mechanics (PC-build side and general resolution mechanics) of noncombat conflict resolution and combat resolution.

If I could have a D&D 4.5, those would be at the top of my wishlist.

Yeah, I think we are very much on the same page my half-Urso-Feline friend (Is there a new race in this, lol). I've been recasting HS as 'Vitality Points' (well, maybe there's a better name, I'm not genius at naming things). The concept being they would be usable in much the same way APs are now, as well as filling the role of HS and perhaps as a recharge or 'dramatic power' charging mechanism. I haven't really tried to play test any of this concept yet, but I THINK it will probably work.

Naturally the disease track stuff would tie into that, so loss of points and loss of maximum points would be one of the consequences. I'm also kind of recasting disease/poison/curse all into a more magical kind of thing. After all, the distinctions between these things are really quite modern, and in fact somewhat arbitrary.

Oh, another one that never really got much use in 4e, but that had potential, was the artifact concordance system. Except it really should have been built as the general loyalty/relationship system. 4e entirely lacked such a system, formally. I never quite figured out why this wasn't at least mooted as one approach to certain specific PC/NPC relationships.

Another interesting thought is, if you have all these 'track-like' concepts in 4e (Skill Challenges, 'Afflictions', and Concordance/Bond) then why not cast them all in terms of a more general SC-like track mechanism? That would allow for a more generalized SC system and the other things would be basically instances of it. So curing a disease would be essentially a 'skill challenge' (I don't want to imply that the mechanics have to be exactly like 4e, though RC's version of SCs is probably not a bad jumping-off point). Building and maintaining a relationship with your henchman would likewise in effect be an SC (or maybe instances of it coming into play would be SC-like mechanics).

Hmmm, now I have to go put some of these thoughts into my notes... lol.

 

[chaochou]

The greatest opportunities that 4e had (mechanically) to be even more awesomerererer was the default game being more Healing Surge intensive, a robust Healing Surge economy (perhaps whereby players can cash in a surge for a bonus but risk a system specified complication), and the xp system really pushing play toward risky, swashbuckley heroics (eg rewarding failure and stunting) and tightly coupled to players' themes, paragon paths, and epic destinies.

Yeah, I think 'Hit Points' would have been better rebranded as 'Hero Points' and openly represented mojo and determination as much as anything physical. Not that it's a bad description in any edition, it's just that it would have sat within the relatively tight design of 4e pretty well and maybe opened up new avenues of use.

I've thought for a long time that if HP are to be defined using all kinds of mental abstracts (luck, determination, willpower etc) then things which affect those (failing a diplomacy roll, knocking a bucket into a well in an goblin infested ex-dwarven fortress) ought to reduce HP.

Just calling them Hero Points breaks that mental link between the need for physical impact (a 'hit') and, in my view, creates a tighter game.

Ahh well. It ain't happening, and I have plenty of games to play that work for me...

 

[Manbearcat]

Yeah, I think we are very much on the same page my half-Urso-Feline friend (Is there a new race in this, lol).

Another interesting thought is, if you have all these 'track-like' concepts in 4e (Skill Challenges, 'Afflictions', and Concordance/Bond) then why not cast them all in terms of a more general SC-like track mechanism? That would allow for a more generalized SC system and the other things would be basically instances of it. So curing a disease would be essentially a 'skill challenge' (I don't want to imply that the mechanics have to be exactly like 4e, though RC's version of SCs is probably not a bad jumping-off point). Building and maintaining a relationship with your henchman would likewise in effect be an SC (or maybe instances of it coming into play would be SC-like mechanics).

Hmmm, now I have to go put some of these thoughts into my notes... lol.

I think what you're describing in a lot of ways here is pretty close to Dungeon World...right down to the relationship with your henchmen/hirelings. If you haven't checked it out, I highly suggest it. I'd recommend anyone who loves 4e to play it. Given the genre interests you've expressed for your D&D, I think it would absolutely scratch a good part of your 4e itch. There is a lot of overlap in theme, play agenda, GMing principles and the techniques that guide play. Its just a more rules-lite, more tightly narrative designed system without the intense crunch of (super super super awesome) 4e tactical combat.

Yeah, I think 'Hit Points' would have been better rebranded as 'Hero Points' and openly represented mojo and determination as much as anything physical. Not that it's a bad description in any edition, it's just that it would have sat within the relatively tight design of 4e pretty well and maybe opened up new avenues of use.

I've thought for a long time that if HP are to be defined using all kinds of mental abstracts (luck, determination, willpower etc) then things which affect those (failing a diplomacy roll, knocking a bucket into a well in an goblin infested ex-dwarven fortress) ought to reduce HP.

Agreed. This is one of the reasons I love 4e's conflict resolution and healing surge system. Charging the PCs heroic mojo (heaing surges) when they fail a diplomacy check or knock a bucket down a well in goblin-infested ruins is a great feedback for the interests of the fiction itself and for the emotional provocation of your players.

Can you imagine how much grief and system incoherency we could have avoided if Hit Points would have just been outright called Hero Points (and surges Heroic Surges) and if Cure spells would have just been Restore Vitality (or something). Oh and if the "to hit" horse that somehow morphed into being literally "to hit this guy in the fiction" from "to hit target number" would have never gotten out of the barn.

Damn you "Hit" and "Cure" and "Wounds". Damn you straight to the 9 Hells.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think what you're describing in a lot of ways here is pretty close to Dungeon World...right down to the relationship with your henchmen/hirelings. If you haven't checked it out, I highly suggest it. I'd recommend anyone who loves 4e to play it. Given the genre interests you've expressed for your D&D, I think it would absolutely scratch a good part of your 4e itch. There is a lot of overlap in theme, play agenda, GMing principles and the techniques that guide play. Its just a more rules-lite, more tightly narrative designed system without the intense crunch of (super super super awesome) 4e tactical combat.

Oh, yeah, I've played some DW. I haven't had a chance to run it, we just never quite got a critical mass going for a longer running campaign. I like many things about DW, but it is a pretty niche game in some respects. Its very good at doing what it says, dungeon crawls. I don't think you cannot do other things, but it tends to be a game where PCs stick very much to their archetype. The other thing that held back playing it more was the sheer difficulty of breaking existing D&D players of their process-simulation mindset. I can teach someone new to RPGs to play DW, but it can be neigh impossible to teach someone that's played D&D for years. They understand the genre conventions, but that just gets in the way of grokking how utterly different the system really is from D&D and what their responsibilities are as a player in a DW game. In the couple groups we tried it with there were always 1 or 2 players that just couldn't make the leap.

Agreed. This is one of the reasons I love 4e's conflict resolution and healing surge system. Charging the PCs heroic mojo (heaing surges) when they fail a diplomacy check or knock a bucket down a well in goblin-infested ruins is a great feedback for the interests of the fiction itself and for the emotional provocation of your players.

Can you imagine how much grief and system incoherency we could have avoided if Hit Points would have just been outright called Hero Points (and surges Heroic Surges) and if Cure spells would have just been Restore Vitality (or something). Oh and if the "to hit" horse that somehow morphed into being literally "to hit this guy in the fiction" from "to hit target number" would have never gotten out of the barn.

Damn you "Hit" and "Cure" and "Wounds". Damn you straight to the 9 Hells.

Yeah, Gygax just didn't have the same agenda we do. For him it was enough to have a way of tracking wounds that was simple. I'm pretty sure it wasn't until much later that various issues and rationalizations happened.

In any case, I agree, maybe I should rename hit points, lol. I sort of informally renamed HS to 'Vitality', more because it can be used to enable some power uses and such things. It also ate action points, which seem redundant to me. In any case I like to simplify.

 

[D'karr]

Damn you "Hit" and "Cure" and "Wounds". Damn you straight to the 9 Hells.

Hit Points! To the last, I will grapple with thee... from Hell's heart, I stab at thee! For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

LOL! OK, so I guess I now MUST rename them hero points in my own hack... sigh, do you guys know how much work it is to find all those places and fix 'em? GRRRRRR. Oh, well, at least the acronym is the same!

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

LOL! OK, so I guess I now MUST rename them hero points in my own hack... sigh, do you guys know how much work it is to find all those places and fix 'em? GRRRRRR. Oh, well, at least the acronym is the same!

I think all the big word processor programs have find/replace functions.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think all the big word processor programs have find/replace functions.

You can use a computer for writing? lol.

 

[HeinorNY]

DM: Well, either he hit you and wounded you or you dodged out of the way and became fatigued. We won't know which until we determine how you recover the HP...

Why can't inspiring words heal HPs lost by being wounded? Nowhere in the book it says that when a character recovers HPs it means his wounds just vanished.