Schroedinger's Wounding (Forked Thread: Disappointed in 4e)

[Mallus]

Fact is, the PC is about to die and that was a result of HP loss.

No. The fact is that the PC is disabled/unconscious/unable to take further action, and this is the result of HP loss.

Whether or not they're about to die hasn't been determined yet. They are wounded.

In turn that means that at least some part of the HP loss must have been a physical, potentially mortal, wound.

Sure. But the severity of that physical wound hasn't been determined yet. What has been concretely established is they can no longer fight/take actions.

But somehow the character is able to stand up again and be rather fine off without outside help, or after a warlord shouts at him (Are you unconscious at negative HP?). And despite that those things can't heal any physical injury which would lead to this persons death they do.

It works like this:

Character goes to zero HP or below - they go down.

Character fails three death saves - their wounds turned out to be quite severe. They die.

Character makes their death save - their wounds are pretty bad. They're unconscious, but stable/not bleeding out.

Character rolls a 20 on their death save - their wounds weren't as bad as they first appeared to be. Character is stunned for a moment, then gets back up as adrenaline surges through them (think Rocky...).

Character is healed by shouting (ie Warlord) - their wounds weren't as bad as they first appeared, the character is conscious after momentarily blacking out, and quick pep talk is all that's needed to bring them around.

Character is healed by magic - the objective severity of their wounds is irrelevant. God makes them better -mainly by using the resources found in their own bodies, natch.

Note that it's significantly harder to make healing surges/4e healing sound ridiculous than it is to offer perfectly reasonable descriptions of how they work.

 

[Scribble]

Character is healed by magic - the objective severity of their wounds is irrelevant. God makes them better -mainly by using the resources found in their own bodies, natch.

Yep... sometimes even magic isn't strong enough to actually heal physical damage in 4e. Like the Healing Word... it costs a healing surge so you're still damaged. It just effectively turns you into a fanatic... God says I should press on?!?! HELLS YES!

 

[Raven Crowking]

My gut tells me that I agree with you, but I am not too sure why that is. Can you expand on this?

I will expand on it, but it requires the ability to concentrate to do well, which I suspect wouldn't be a big hit here at work.


RC

 

[Hypersmurf]

And is replaced by Shroedingers Death saves.

I agree that when somebody goes down, it's unknown as to whether the wound is fatal or not (just like in 3E, with the stabiliization roll).

But like I said before, this is the time when it's appropriate for nobody to know.

The person who's in the best position to know whether or not it's a serious wound is insensible and incommunicative, so it doesn't need to be nailed down for their benefit.

The other people who are concerned about the answer aren't in a position to know, unless they take an action to evaluate the wound via a Heal check. If they beat a DC 15, they determine that the wound is not fatal (since the character is now stable by virtue of the DC 15 Heal check). If they don't beat a DC 15, they're still unsure (since their medical knowledge was not sufficient to determine if the wound is fatal or not).

So nobody knows if the wound is fatal or not until the character recovers or dies... but that fits in the game world anyway.

-Hyp.

 

[GlaziusF]

I would agree with you....but I would also say that it is rather silly to pretend that long journeys without fruits & vegetables are a good idea. Similarly, it's disingenuous (at best) to present Schroedinger's Wounding as a drawback to 4E that doesn't require a constant barrage of fruits & veggies (in the form of working to avoid it) to solve.

But the thing is, you only need to pack up the fruits and veggies once, at the start of your journey.

Similarly, when you come up with the character concept you can also come up with a damage model. And if circumstances change - say, your martial character starts realizing his epic destiny as a demigod of tactics - you can come up with a new one - his tattoos form into armies to "repel the invaders".

If your damage model has you going down in a pile of blood and guts at 0 hit points when you can't possibly jam them back in and get up without external (divine) aid, that's a problem with your damage model, not a problem with the system.

Admittedly, the "default damage model" that, say, the DM applies to the monsters he's running works roughly this way, and if you consider the hit point system as modeling life at full and death at 0 with a continuum in between, which is what the use of numerical "ratio" data intuitively suggests, it's the first thing to spring to mind.

But if you want to narrate incoming damage to your character you have to construct a damage model that has your character able to go from 0 hit points to full completely on his own. For anyone who doesn't want to rely on the supernatural, like for example "pure martial" characters, this can be done by modeling the loss of hit points as not lasting damage but shock - hard parries, glancing blows, et cetera. Hit point loss by itself doesn't have any persistent effects, though characters can still be knocked unconscious and die without grievous bodily harm.

The unified damage model can't meet several expectations. It can't account for healing from multiple sources necessarily having different physical effects - martial healing restores morale and vigor, divine healing closes wounds, arcane healing reverses time for the wound or constructs a mystical exoskeletal "cast" or "bandage". It also can't generate random combat wounds, though individual monsters can have "wounding powers" which apply a persistent effect after the pattern of the disease track. If you expect either of those, you have to bodge them in yourself, which often opens the door to indeterminacy.

 

[Lacyon]

My gut tells me that I agree with you, but I am not too sure why that is. Can you expand on this?

It essentially boils down to this*: PCs in a sandbox are reasonably likely to, at some point, be narratively described as pretty physically beaten up, at a point where there's nothing mechanical in the sandbox** to suggest that they should stop and nurse these narrated injuries (or seek magical healing, or whatever). So they don't - they'll push forward to the next tomb, or the next level of the megadungeon, or whatever, and keep going. Which means the next time they're at a reasonable stopping point, they'll have even more narrative physical injuries, with still no mechanical effect. This can continue ad absurdum; even if you like this kind of thing in moderation, it can grate when done to excess.

*Really not meaning to put words in your mouth, RC, but I think I understand where you're going with this. Feel free to add/contradict or whatever when you get the time.

** As I mentioned in another thread, there are ways other than healing rules to mechanically incentivize downtime, and once the PCs take some time off for any of those other reasons, the inconsistency naturally resolves itself.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This can continue ad absurdum; even if you like this kind of thing in moderation, it can grate when done to excess.

If it grates for the sandbox players, they can choose stop and rest - it's their sandbox!

If it grates for the sandbox DM, he can narrate less-severe injuries next time.

-Hyp.

 

[Lacyon]

If it grates for the sandbox players, they can choose stop and rest - it's their sandbox!

If there are mechanical advantages to pressing on*, and none for resting, players will be grated by the idea of giving up a mechanical advantage for the sole purpose of avoiding grating.

If it grates for the sandbox DM, he can narrate less-severe injuries next time.

Even less-severe injuries add up over time; ad absurdum can still be reached.

*This is an assumption implicit in the original complaint that needn't be true, and suggests other angles for mitigating the issue.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If there are mechanical advantages to pressing on*, and none for resting, players will be grated by the idea of giving up a mechanical advantage for the sole purpose of avoiding grating.

Then the players need thicker skins Or, of course, they need to watch Die Hard again, and then get thicker skins.

Alternatively, they can decide whether they're more bothered by losing the mechanical advantage, or by the cinematic conundrum of pressing on while carrying injuries... and repeat each time new injuries are incurred. At some point, either they'll find that giving up the mechanical advantage is worth relieving their anxiety over the bandages and they'll rest; or they won't, in which case the mental image of the injuries isn't really the issue they pretend it is.

Alternatively, they can use 4E for Episodic Play, and find somewhere else to build their sandbox.

Alternatively, get the DM to house-rule in a lingering wounds system for sandbox play.

Even less-severe injuries add up over time; ad absurdum can still be reached.

But less-severe injuries heal over time as well, so by the time you've accumulated more, the old ones are better.

Time is exactly the cause of the complaint... so if narrating less-severe injuries causes the time component to extend, the problem solves itself.

-Hyp.

 

[Scribble]

I think it's mainly a problem if the DM and the players aren't on the same page about the importance of the narrative.

IE if the narrative element is important to all players then they will stop and rest to recover from injuries despite there being no mechanical benefit to doing so, or no mechanical penalty for not doing so. Just because logically thats what you have to do.

If the narrative element is important to the DM, but not the players, then when they decide to press on, because well- no reason mechanically they shouldn't, then it will grate on the DM that they are so injured but still continuing on despite the insanity such an action would cause in real life...

Having a game rule element in place forces even players who have no issue with continuing on despite their injuries to stop and rest.

I personally think it's better to just be on the same page.