Schroedinger's Wounding (Forked Thread: Disappointed in 4e)

[GlaziusF]

If it was my responibility, I would come up with examples that show how hit points could be interpreted in a variety of situations. These situations would not have a common theme otherwise a single example would do. Random examples serve no clear purpose. And power origin based examples while interesting would cause issues with people railing against a uniform delivery of damage from a particular power source. A discussion of the types of things that can reduce a combatant's will to fight would be suitable (but again you run into difficulties with killing people from an interesting effect, rather than their will to fight). Perhaps if rather than being killed, a PC was defeated based upon the damage that brought them to 0 hp or under and rolling death saves. If it was from physical injury, then yes they have been defeated and killed. If it was from psychic damage, they remain comatose. If it was defeat from another's overt presence, then it is a surrender. If it was from fear, they are cowering uncontrollably. Examples would be based upon the different damage "types" so to speak.

Two more problems:

1 - a giant list of contingencies to plan for makes the problem of creating a damage model seem more imposing than it actually is. Actually it makes it seem as imposing as it actually is, but people make things out to be more imposing than they actually are, so you have to make your stuff look easy or it'll never seem worth it.

2 - a giant list of contingencies may be used as a cookbook, which results in dependency and an unwillingness to account for anything the cookbook doesn't explicitly cover, viz: "What I cannot create, I do not understand." -- Richard Feynman, a guy who may have known a thing or two about teaching people complicated stuff.

What a book needs to do to get people to create their own damage model is:

• Sell people on the idea that narrating damage can be fun, perhaps via the concept of character agency vs. DM agency. e.g. As a DM I want all my players to narrate their own damage because a) then I don't have to do it b) it's something more they can do when it's not their turn and c) they fall down at zero anyway so what do I care what they say?
• Show that assuming hit points to represent the linear continuum between health and zero-point death that they seem to represent has more than two problems
• Spell out the (extremely limited) mechanical implications of hit points and the strictures they apply to a damage model

I'm not sure that can be done without polarizing examples. I'm doubly not sure it belongs in what is essentially an introductory text because damage modeling is 201 material if ever there was 201 material.

 

[pemerton]

I think there is a certain argument to be made that sandbox vs. episodic is the irrelevant part of the distinction he is making, and that the important part is whether or not the characters are presumed to have any protracted downtime or not (which can occur in either episodic or sandbox games). However, if this kind of realism is necessary or you and you play in a game with no assumptions of protracted downtime, then there may very well be a logical disconnect with the rules. But again, this is only a problem for a limited sub-set of players looking for a particular experience, so I think it is more appropriate to create house rules to make the problem work for you than it is to condemn a system that works very well in most other situations.

Agreed.

I think this is the point some people (myself included) have been making. It does exist, and yes, you do have to carefully narrate around it.

Isn't one answer to narrate it the same as you did stabilisation rolls in 3E?

 

[pemerton]

It's actually not, surprisingly.

If it was my responibility, I would come up with examples that show how hit points could be interpreted in a variety of situations.

I was thinking along similar lines Herremann - a few examples of narration in particular mechanical situations so that people can get the idea of it. HeroWars/Quest and The Dying Earth both have such examples.

It may be true that such examples are prone to make people draw on particular genre tropes (or cliches, to be less polite) for their own narration - but in an RPG like D&D I don't know that that's a bad thing.

What a book needs to do to get people to create their own damage model is:

• Sell people on the idea that narrating damage can be fun, perhaps via the concept of character agency vs. DM agency. e.g. As a DM I want all my players to narrate their own damage because a) then I don't have to do it b) it's something more they can do when it's not their turn and c) they fall down at zero anyway so what do I care what they say?
• Show that assuming hit points to represent the linear continuum between health and zero-point death that they seem to represent has more than two problems
• Spell out the (extremely limited) mechanical implications of hit points and the strictures they apply to a damage model

I'm not sure that can be done without polarizing examples. I'm doubly not sure it belongs in what is essentially an introductory text because damage modeling is 201 material if ever there was 201 material.

Given the centrality of damage and healing to D&D play I think the book has to tackle it. I think that examples are probably required. Provided they're reasonably genre-appropriate I'm not sure that they have to be more controversial than the ruleset is in any event.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Folks need to stop comparing the uncertainty of 3E's stabilization checks with 4E's death saves.

In the case of 3E, there is no quantum wounding question ... you have been badly wounded, and you very well might die. Even if you don't die, you were badly wounded.

In 4E, whether you were actually wounded or not can't be determined until you either die or recover. If you die, you were actually badly wounded. If you recover, you weren't.

They're not the same thing, because it isn't the randomness of both systems that's the issue.

 

[Hypersmurf]

In 4E, whether you were actually wounded or not can't be determined until you either die or recover. If you die, you were actually badly wounded. If you recover, you weren't.

Why weren't you?

You weren't fatally wounded. But neither was the 3E character who made his stabilisation check.

What makes you say he wasn't badly wounded?

-Hyp.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

What makes you say he wasn't badly wounded?

Because in six hours, with absolutely no treatment, he's at perfect peak fighting form.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Because in six hours, with absolutely no treatment, he's at perfect peak fighting form.

Would you say the 3E character with 1 hit point remaining is Badly Wounded? He's in no danger whatsoever of dying; he's not required to make stabilisation checks; what defines Badly Wounded?

-Hyp.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Would you say the 3E character with 1 hit point remaining is Badly Wounded? He's in no danger whatsoever of dying; he's not required to make stabilisation checks; what defines Badly Wounded?

If you want to respond with a coherent argument against what I wrote, please do. Like many others, I'm not interested in playing Twenty Questions with you.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Would you say the 3E character with 1 hit point remaining is Badly Wounded? He's in no danger whatsoever of dying; he's not required to make stabilisation checks; what defines Badly Wounded?

-Hyp.

I suppose he's like a guy in 4E with no healing surges left and 2 failed death saves on the board. One decent sized hit and he's gone.

As for what defines a state that's badly wounded? One where recovering to unhindered health naturally is going to take a bit of time (read longer than overnight). I understand where you're coming from and it's most probably best stated that hit points/damage/healing have always had their issues in D&D regardless of edition.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Because in six hours, with absolutely no treatment, he's at perfect peak fighting form.

In 3E this is a matter of days. Still, nobody needs to give you medical treatment. (Though strictly speaking, I think 3E also has a second stabilization roll requirement on a hourly basis). What kind of badly wounds do allow full recovery without any aid? Even if you just break your arm, without proper treatment, you are likely to keep a lasting hindrance.

Though of course from the perspective of an encountard or 4E designer, this all doesn't matter. Once a character is stabilized, he won't die because his allies will bring him back to full fighting force in no time, using medical aid, potions, spells or wands of cure light wound. So from that perspective, the "verisimilitude" concessions created by alternative healing models are meaningless in actual play, and thus not required.