Schroedinger's Wounding (Forked Thread: Disappointed in 4e)

[pemerton]

Because in six hours, with absolutely no treatment, he's at perfect peak fighting form.

And in 3E it is a matter of a day or two for a first level Wizard, perhaps a little longer for a more combat-oriented class.

In any event, as I've posted before, I think that the short rest and healing surge mechanics are quite distinct from the extended rest mechanics. As many have posted, you can alter the latter if you wish without changing the dynamics of combat and in-combat healing at all (eg using the approach in the Advanced Players Guide). Or you can just narrate it the same as you do recovery from a short rest - that is, as grit and determination.

Though of course from the perspective of an encountard or 4E designer, this all doesn't matter. Once a character is stabilized, he won't die because his allies will bring him back to full fighting force in no time, using medical aid, potions, spells or wands of cure light wound. So from that perspective, the "verisimilitude" concessions created by alternative healing models are meaningless in actual play, and thus not required.

This really can't be stressed enough.

If the complaints are really about extended rests, just add the following class feature to Clerics: also automatically learn the 1st level ritual Heal All Wounds, cost free, no skill check required, 10 minutes to perform, after an extended rest the target recovers all healing surges. Now the game plays no differently except every party needs a cleric (or some other ritualist who has payed to learn this ritual).

We have now recreated the verisimilitude of 3E healing.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

We have now recreated the verisimilitude of 3E healing.

Speaking for myself, the responses are to arguments I wasn't making.

I simply advised against likening the stabilization rolls of 3E with the "am I really wounded or not?" effect of 4E. Despite both being random, they are not the same.

 

[GlaziusF]

Folks need to stop comparing the uncertainty of 3E's stabilization checks with 4E's death saves.

In the case of 3E, there is no quantum wounding question ... you have been badly wounded, and you very well might die. Even if you don't die, you were badly wounded.

In 4E, whether you were actually wounded or not can't be determined until you either die or recover. If you die, you were actually badly wounded. If you recover, you weren't.

They're not the same thing, because it isn't the randomness of both systems that's the issue.

I love how you're making the two giant assumptions that a) only people who are badly wounded ever die and b) death in 4e constitutes what we in the modern age would call clinical death.

I mean, if a guy gets KOed by a purple dragon's MIND CRUSH, what's wrong with saying that he just kind of collapsed, normal attempts to heal him don't seem to work, and he's fully breathing and autonomically responsive but otherwise A PRISONER IN HIS OWN MIND and he'll stay there until somebody ritually goes in and busts him out, in a process that bears an uncanny resemblance to Raise Dead.

 

[Mad Mac]

In the case of 3E, there is no quantum wounding question ... you have been badly wounded, and you very well might die. Even if you don't die, you were badly wounded.

So badly wounded that you will be completely healed in 1-3 days, with no magical healing applied, yes. About as long as it takes to recover from a slight cold or minor muscle sprain.

I realize that nobody, (myself included) actually used the 3E non-magical healing rules past 3rd level, but it really is extremely fast.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I simply advised against likening the stabilization rolls of 3E with the "am I really wounded or not?" effect of 4E. Despite both being random, they are not the same.

In both cases you are making rolls against a clock. 3E your countdown lasts 1 to 9 rounds as you approach -10 hp. 4E countdown is 3 failed death saves.

In both cases you can not get back up until you receive healing or awake naturally on your own. 3E healing is via spells or potions. 4E healing is via spells, exploits or healing surges. You have a 10-90% chance of self-stabilizing in 3E, then its a matter of hours until you wake up on your own. You have roughly a 10-30% chance to recover if you have a healing surge remaining, 0% if you have no healing surges remaining, in 4E to recover on your own.

So I'd say you are usually more severely wounded in 4E. Healing is more abundant in 4E, but if you are left to yourself you are more likely to die in 4E than 3E.

So I really don't see how stabilization rolls and death saves create a difference in determining whether a character is wounded.

 

[Obryn]

Apropos of nothing but the thread title....

-O

 

[Derren]

In both cases you can not get back up until you receive healing or awake naturally on your own. 3E healing is via spells or potions. 4E healing is via spells, exploits or healing surges. You have a 10-90% chance of self-stabilizing in 3E, then its a matter of hours until you wake up on your own. You have roughly a 10-30% chance to recover if you have a healing surge remaining, 0% if you have no healing surges remaining, in 4E to recover on your own.

That is not correct.
When you stabilize in 3E you now loose 1 HP at an hourly basis. And every hour you again have a 10% chance of stabilizing again (of course you don't recover HP during that time). If the chracter stabilizes again he becomes conscious and stops loosing HP each hour. But he is disabled and can only stagger around. And he still does not heal naturally. He now losses 1 HP every day unless he makes yet another 10% roll to start healing naturally.

So without outside help a character in 3E has a very low chance of survival even if he stabilizes the first time. And by the time the 3E character starts to regenerate HP the 4E character has already taken an extended rest (when you allow that being unconscious counts as resting) and is, as far as teh game is concerned, completely unharmed again.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I suppose he's like a guy in 4E with no healing surges left and 2 failed death saves on the board. One decent sized hit and he's gone.

Right, but in neither case is their fighting ability impaired, and there is no danger of them dying spontaneously, and there is no mechanical requirement that the hit point damage they have sustained be apparent in the form of a bad wound.

If the distinction between 3E natural healing mechanic and 4E natural healing mechanic is that the 3E character can be badly wounded and the 4E character cannot, then what is the mechanical definition of 'badly wounded'?

Is it any time the character takes more than 6 hours to regain his full hit point total? If so, the 3E Barbarian with 19 hit points at first level is 'badly wounded' if he takes 2 points of damage. He won't be at full for two days unless he gets complete bed rest.

-Hyp.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

That is not correct.
When you stabilize in 3E you now loose 1 HP at an hourly basis. And every hour you again have a 10% chance of stabilizing again (of course you don't recover HP during that time). If the chracter stabilizes again he becomes conscious and stops loosing HP each hour. But he is disabled and can only stagger around. And he still does not heal naturally. He now losses 1 HP every day unless he makes yet another 10% roll to start healing naturally. So without outside help a character in 3E has a very low chance of survival even if he stabilizes the first time.

You are correct, so that changed your chances of recovery on your own to 0-1% determined over the course of as little as a round to as long as 9 days. After 9 hours the 3E character is either dead or can get up and go seek aid in the next 24 hours.

And by the time the 3E character starts to regenerate HP the 4E character has already taken an extended rest (when you allow that being unconscious counts as resting) and is, as far as teh game is concerned, completely unharmed again.

An extended rest is 6 hours. That's 360 death saves you would have to make. The chance of making that many in row before failing 3 is smaller than the chance of a 3E character dropped to -9 hp from recovering on his own. Even if you allow a short rest model, that's 5 minutes, or 50 death saves.

Getting a natural 20 on a death save before failing 3 times is what makes it more likely a 4E character will recover on his own. And I'm sure someone who understands statistics better than me will explain why I haven't encountered the 10-30% recovery figure I stated before.

My point still stands that the numbers may have changed, but death saves and stabilization rolls are effectively the same. If you can't wrap your head around what kind of wound a dying character has in 4E, then you should have had the same problem in previous editions. The truth is that most characters in any edition get help through healing or die if left on their own.

 

[firesnakearies]

Right, but in neither case is their fighting ability impaired, and there is no danger of them dying spontaneously, and there is no mechanical requirement that the hit point damage they have sustained be apparent in the form of a bad wound.

If the distinction between 3E natural healing mechanic and 4E natural healing mechanic is that the 3E character can be badly wounded and the 4E character cannot, then what is the mechanical definition of 'badly wounded'?

Is it any time the character takes more than 6 hours to regain his full hit point total? If so, the 3E Barbarian with 19 hit points at first level is 'badly wounded' if he takes 2 points of damage. He won't be at full for two days unless he gets complete bed rest.

-Hyp.

Zing!



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