Scribe Scroll: Paper Versus Projection?

[a-d]

Paper Scrolls versus Holographic Scrolls

History
Noticed Spellbooks have a limited number of pages.
Figured a spellbook made out of a permant "Silent Image" would have infinite pages.
Then thought, if you can do that with a Spellbook, why not a Scroll?
Saw that you can only scribe one Scroll a day.
Then read that you can scribe as many spells as you like onto a single scroll so long as it's below 1,000 gold in price.
With infinite pages that's 40 level 1, caster level 1, spells on a single scroll.
Forumla:
Spell level x Caster level x 25 gold
(1x1)x25=25 gold=40 spells in a day=1,000 gold


Silent Image doesn't seem like a high enough spell to allow this.
Which one would?

 

[Loonook]

Paper Scrolls versus Holographic Scrolls

History
Noticed Spellbooks have a limited number of pages.
Figured a spellbook made out of a permant "Silent Image" would have infinite pages.
Then thought, if you can do that with a Spellbook, why not a Scroll?
Saw that you can only scribe one Scroll a day.
Then read that you can scribe as many spells as you like onto a single scroll so long as it's below 1,000 gold in price.
With infinite pages that's 40 level 1, caster level 1, spells on a single scroll.
Forumla:
Spell level x Caster level x 25 gold
(1x1)x25=25 gold=40 spells in a day=1,000 gold


Silent Image doesn't seem like a high enough spell to allow this.
Which one would?

Doesn't create texture... And only makes an image as visualized by you that may be moved but not interacted per the description. Also it is a figment; can't interact with the real world. So if it doesn't allow itself to be moved or touched... How are you flipping the pages?

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[a-d]

You're creating the image, which means interaction is occurring. And since it's an infinite Silent Image, you won't run out of charges so if necessary you can replace the entire image with it's new additions.

Texture of the paper?
Okay, how magic scrolls work is a serious issue, and part of the reason I'm asking what a better spell would be for the creation of a holographic scroll.
And holographic Spellbook.

 

[Loonook]

You're creating the image, which means interaction is occurring. And since it's an infinite Silent Image, you won't run out of charges so if necessary you can replace the entire image with it's new additions.

Texture of the paper?
Okay, how magic scrolls work is a serious issue, and part of the reason I'm asking what a better spell would be for the creation of a holographic scroll.
And holographic Spellbook.

Writing requires a change in the paper's texture, raising the text of the page applies a non-uniform texture. As I said, read the Figment subschool and Silent Image... You're creating a book. It may even have text on it... But you cannot manipulate the image except to move the static image back and forth.

You're creating an image with inherent value = GP cost of inscribing all spells. It is in a unique language that you can interpret that is gibberish to anyone else. The book cannot move more than 400 ft + 40/lvl from its original location, and cannot be made permanent. The spell lasts until you break concentration... you'll be sure to lose it when you sleep.

Did I mention that this ability doesn't work like you think it works?

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[jefgorbach]

[MENTION=1861]Loonook[/MENTION]

ok, um so?
He's effectively scanning a large collection of spellbooks/reference works into a single "pdf file" of images so the originals can be left safely elsewhere while he travels with the more portable form. Provided its legible, one can view/study an image of text just as well as the original pages so I would allow it.


The SRD states "A spellbook has 100 pages of parchment, and each spell takes up one page per spell level (one page each for 0-level spells)." It does NOT say what the game world decided upon for a standard page size, so for simplisity lets say its 12 inches x 12 inches (1 square foot) thus a standard spellbook requires 100 square feet of parchment.


The description for Silent Image does NOT say its static, but only "the illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature" making it akin to the early black-n-white silent movies. An image of a roaring campfire may not be crackling nor hot to the touch but its still an image of a roaring campfire; therefore an image of slowly flipping pages should be possible. Rather pointless, but possible.

I say pointless because consider the massive size of the image. A Wizard3 (minimum to have the Craft Wondrous Item feat) creates (7) 10 fOOT CUBES equating to 4,200 square feet; enough space to scan 42 spellbooks; so to make it functual, I would DM-fiat the device projects a "scrollable" 12 inch x 12 inch window/section of the total document, controlled by audio commands (on/off, Record, top, up, down, bottom, goto page#).

Since Silent Image is a concentration spell, the user would need to read EACH page in the order he desires them stored with ONLY those pages included in the most recent recording session existing within the device for display. IOW -ALL- (42) original spellbooks would need read in a single Concentration session to completly fill the device; Concentration checks would apply, with failture indicating your attention wandered and further pages can't be filled without restarting from page 1.


-BLANK- Spell Tablet
CL 3, Silent Image, triggered by command word (1 x 3 x 1,800)
Doesn't use a body slot (like ioun stones) x2
Item requires knowing specific language -10%
Item only useable by wizards -30%
Adjusted manufacturing cost 6,480gp
Manufacture's Suggested Retail Price 12,960gp
Price does NOT include any spells/data.

Comparable to (42) blank spellbooks at 15gp each: 630gp.

 

[Sekhmet]

I agree that the spell should be usable in such a fashion, but I disagree on your pricing.
The text presented is illegible gobbledygook to everyone but the caster, so the language you speak is irrelevant.
Also, unless you're specifically tuning it to Wizards only, Bards and Sorcerers could use the book as well.

 

[Loonook]

[MENTION=1861]Loonook[/MENTION]

Because per the requirement of inscribing a scroll or spell you actually have to inscribe it. A physical effect must be applied for 1 day/spell copied with the cost of 100 GP per page. As the item in question does not have a physical page to scribe onto (the spell sets the effect before you would have a chance to begin scribing)... It is impossible to do within the current rules.

Whenever you 'copy' a spell that can be used to prepare spells you're paying that price again. And again. And again. And each spell will bring you closer to losing concentration... And breaking the spell. Once you pass out due to exhaustion, take damage from exhaustion, etc... Done.

Oh, and depending on what you're copying? Have fun staying up for months or years preparing this spell.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

Edit: There we go... knew there was some sort of device like it... Necklace of the Phantom Library (Eberron Explorer's Handbook, P. 152, [Corrected Costs p. 150.] Maxes out at 300 pages (top SL 7th) at 30,000 GP. Of course it can also be completely erased by a swift action of anyone who has a single level of Wizard. I think that it has the correct spells for what you need (Programmed Image is right, CL is high enough, rare Giant-related item usually found in ruins of giant mage's keeps)... And gives you a baseline of how far off you are.

 

[Greenfield]

You can project a Silent Image of anything you can imagine, so yes, you could create such an image of a spell book, complete with any spells you currently have memorized. The other spells in your real book? You don't currently know them.

You could do the same for a Scroll. Whether it would act as a Spell Completion item is another matter. If I'm the DM, it's just another version of a page from a spell book, and not a magic item at all.

Now let's say that you sit down with a real spell book and your DM lets you create, via Silent Image, an exact copy of that book, or even a compiled copy of several books, I see neither a way nor a reason to make it permanent.

The Silent Image lasts as long as you concentrate on it. That means that you can't cast any other spells while the image exists. Such as Permanency.

Presuming you found a way around that problem, the next one comes from the nature of Silent Image itself: It has an "Area". The book or scroll cannot leave the area it was originally cast in. Such illusions can move around in that area, but they can't leave it.

All of this presumes that said book will react to a touch when someone tries to pick it up and/or turn the pages. If the caster is concentrating one it (i.e. maintaining it normally), they can make it move as they choose, but once the caster ceases concentration, the illusion ceases moving, and it never responds on its own to an outside force. When you make it Permanent, it's now being maintained by that Permanency effect, not by the caster. There's nothing in that spell's description that even suggests that you could resume control.

Perhaps you're thinking of Permanent Image? Same problems regarding moving it out of the original area it was cast in, of course, but some of the problems go away.

Finally, of course, this is all based on the premise that you can be fooled by your own illusion, one that you *know* is an illusion because you created it.

So my gut reaction to the entire premise is to cast an Empowered, Maximized Dispel BS on it.

If you're worried about being able to haul your books around, invest in a Boccob's Blessed Book.

If you're trying to find a free way to scribe scrolls, forget it. The answer is, and should always be, "No".

 

[a-d]

Not original idea.
Original idea was a spellbook with unlimited pages. Have access to that now.
Costs 15 or 30k gold for every 300 pages to craft plus a little more for getting rid of that secret agent, "If caught destroy the documents" button.
Use the Feats, Craft Wondrous Item and Scribe Scroll together to create a scroll version.

It did however lead to this idea today.
Permant magic item: Price plus x100 exp cost and x100 material component cost if required.

Permanent rod of permanency: x100 exp cost.
Since each thing permanenced has an additional cost per permanency you might be able to pre-load the rod with exp to reduce the total exp required by 1 xp per 100 xp placed in the rod.

Here's a list of spells that can be permanenced and the exp costs to do so.
Lowest: 500 x 100=50,000 xp investment
Highest: 4,500 x 100=450,000 xp investment

Expensive.
But if you can place xp in a rod to act alongside a spell, why not just xp to act by itself?

Scribe Scroll
(Spell level 1 x Caster level 1) x 25=25 gold
25 gold divided by 25=1 xp

Rod of XP
Spell of "blank," costing "blank."
100 xp=1 xp directed at scroll
2,500 gold=25 gold directed at scroll

1 scroll a day at spell level 1, caster level 1 for free

And what if the spells on the scroll are separate? Could you fill a paper scroll with enough space for six spells of SpL1 CsL1 in a day for free?
Game balance might say no, but mechanically?

And what is the idea with Silent Image being locked to a position in space?
Silent Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: Visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)
Duration: Concentration
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance: No

This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.
Focus: A bit of fleece.

Personal Translation
I read that as meaning the illusion can't extend beyond it's area of effect, not that's it's locked to a position in space.
Carry a sword with an illusion placed on it made permanent by someone else casting Permanency or by researching your own version of the required illusion spell and the illusion will move with the sword.

On Seeing Your Own Illusions
And while disbelieving in your own illusions is probably easy, believing in them is likely even easier. "I know it's there and I know what it looks like so let me see it."
Intentionally failing your Will save.
It's one of the bonuses of using such a thing. Every so often you can disbelieve in the illusion to keep it from giving you a spot check penalty.

 

[Loonook]

Not original idea.
Original idea was a spellbook with unlimited pages. Have access to that now.
Costs 15 or 30k gold for every 300 pages to craft plus a little more for getting rid of that secret agent, "If caught destroy the documents" button.
Use the Feats, Craft Wondrous Item and Scribe Scroll together to create a scroll version.

It did however lead to this idea today.
Permant magic item: Price plus x100 exp cost and x100 material component cost if required.

Permanent rod of permanency: x100 exp cost.
Since each thing permanenced has an additional cost per permanency you might be able to pre-load the rod with exp to reduce the total exp required by 1 xp per 100 xp placed in the rod.

Here's a list of spells that can be permanenced and the exp costs to do so.
Lowest: 500 x 100=50,000 xp investment
Highest: 4,500 x 100=450,000 xp investment

Expensive.
But if you can place xp in a rod to act alongside a spell, why not just xp to act by itself?

Scribe Scroll
(Spell level 1 x Caster level 1) x 25=25 gold
25 gold divided by 25=1 xp

Rod of XP
Spell of "blank," costing "blank."
100 xp=1 xp directed at scroll
2,500 gold=25 gold directed at scroll

1 scroll a day at spell level 1, caster level 1 for free

And what if the spells on the scroll are separate? Could you fill a paper scroll with enough space for six spells of SpL1 CsL1 in a day for free?
Game balance might say no, but mechanically?

And what is the idea with Silent Image being locked to a position in space?
Silent Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: Visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)
Duration: Concentration
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance: No

This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.
Focus: A bit of fleece.

Personal Translation
I read that as meaning the illusion can't extend beyond it's area of effect, not that's it's locked to a position in space.
Carry a sword with an illusion placed on it made permanent by someone else casting Permanency or by researching your own version of the required illusion spell and the illusion will move with the sword.

Because Silent Image is not on the Permanency list your whole argument is moot.

Again, you cannot make a permanent Silent Image. It only lasts for concentration. The item I listed requires a much higher-leveled image... And the reading of Silent Image has existed since the original creation of the spell. It cannot extend outside of the area of effect (harsh interpretation, and correct) or range (more liberal interpretation that I personally use). You establish the effect at point A within the range of the cast spell. The ability for the image to move is restricted to that location.

It is basic spells in D&D. Please... You cannot do what you wish to do within RAW. You may decide to create a CL 1 item that casts Wish... But that is outside of the rules. Go nuts.

Slainte,

-Loonook.