Scry - Teleport - Initiative - Surprise?

[random user]

If a BBEG and friends scry a party and then teleport in (and weren't detected beforehand), would you say they automatically got a surprise round? Or would the party get some chance to not be surprised? And if so, what sort of check would you have them make?

 

[Ovinomancer]

This is the way I do it. When the BBEG's party decides to teleport in, that would be the start of hostile activity, thus demanding initiative be rolled. Since the PC party at this point has no way of detecting the bad guys, they would automatically grant the BBEG & friends a surprise round. The BBEG would then use his/her/its surprise round standard action to teleport in. Thus the fray begins. Note that since the BBEG's group had a surprise round, none of them are flatfooted during the first full round of combat, while the PC party very well might be.

 

[Thanee]

Yep, if noone detected the scrying sensor, a surprise round would start normally.

But as the others have pointed out, this is a bit much of a bonus to the already prepared and buffed up attacker, so it's probably better to just start with the initiative.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

We don't; upon teleporting in, everyone on both sides rolls initiative and we go from there.

Mostly this is to help blunt the effectiveness of Scry-Buff-Teleport tactics...in fact, we got the idea from reading (contact)'s Liberation of Tenh story hour, where he made a side comment to that effect. Simply put, getting a surprise round in on top of the buffing and the instant arrival at just the right position is just too much of an advantage for it to be even remotely fun for the players or the GM.

Our in-game rationale is that the people doing the teleporting still need to orient themselves to their new surroundings, thereby eating up their surprise round and jumping everyone directly to the "roll initiative" phase.

Whether anyone in the teleporting group is flatfooted or not hasn't really come up yet. I imagine that when it does we'll probably shift our interpretation to match up more with Ovinomancer's, and say that no one in the teleported group counts as being unprepared for battle, while some of the low-initiative clowns in the group being attacked probably are. I think that would work out okay.

--
at least, it wouldn't offend any of our delicate sensibilities
ryan

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, you could just use the surprise round as an orientation phase, so everyone in the attacking group has acted already, but done nothing.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Liminal Syzygy]

I do the same as Herpes for the same reason. Straight up initiative roll and to blunt the effectiveness of that tactic.

 

[Targos]

Do keep in mind the players can use the same tactic. I've had problems with players scrying the enemy (3.0E) until they go to sleep for the night. Teleport in and coup de grace them. If this tactic is permitted it makes a mess. Its more difficult to do in 3.5 since the scrying target now gets a will save, but for those low will saves its still fairly effective. If you want to do it go ahead, but don't be suprised when the PCs attempt the same tactic.

 

[Vrecknidj]

I suppose a good way to do this, for the bad guys, is to have everyone be invisible, and to have a silence effect in place (that's just about to wear off). So, they pop in, but no one sees or hears anything.

If the bad guys did this, I'd still require that the rest of that round (i.e. the bad guys' move action if the teleporting was the standard action) be spent re-orienting.

But, during that portion of that round, I'd make Listen and Spot checks for the PCs (don't have them roll, they'll know something is up). If anyone gets a high-enough Spot check, they might notice a ripple or disturbance in the air, akin perhaps to an out-of-place heat wave. If anyone gets a high-enough Listen check, they might notice that there's a peculiar lack of sound in a certain region.

If a PC made such a roll, I'd say something to the player, or hand him a note. If the player says something like "Hmm. Well, I'll walk over there and see what's going on," then they're surprised. If the players says something like "I draw my sword and prepare for battle," then they're not surprised.

Everyone who isn't surprised will get to roll Initiative, of course, the rest will have to wait a round.

Dave

 

[Vaxalon]

I'd go even further than that; I give the VICTIMS of this procedure the surprise round, due to disorientation. I'm still considering what kind of check to give the attacker to avoid the disorientation and act in the surprise round.

 

[Thanee]

I'd go even further than that; I give the VICTIMS of this procedure the surprise round, due to disorientation. I'm still considering what kind of check to give the attacker to avoid the disorientation and act in the surprise round.

How about initiative?

Hmm... guess I should explain that a little more...

Just do like many others above and remove the surprise round. The initiative check then shows, whether you are surprised (flat-footed) or not, once someone else acts. Just as usual.

Bye
Thanee