Scythe Wielder - Feats

[Black_Dog]

I just have to point out that weapon threat range increases in the upcoming 3.5 rules will no longer stack, ie Keen enhancment and Improved Critical no longer result in a Scythe having a threat range of 18-20.
I must admit I have played a Cleric/Fighter/War Priest of quite high level who had a Scythe and very effective it was too. Flaming Burst or another such enhancement results in a Critical hit giving an extra 3d10 points of damage!
The feats he had to deal with his Scythe? Well remembering that he was also a cleric I think all he had was Improved Critical!

 

[Camarath]

With Weapon Master you can still get the threat range down to 17-20. With the new power attack you can take a -5 to attack and get +40 to damage on a critical. A +1 scythe with flaming burst, shocking burst, acidic burst and icy burt (total enhancement of +9) wield by a weapon matser with 26 str and who uses full power attack will do 8d4 + 92 + 3d10 fire + 3d10 acid + 3d10 cold + 3d10 electricity (112 to 244) on a critical strike. A simple +5 scythe would do 116 to 140 on a critical (normal damage 29 to 35) . If the weapon is adamantine then it will still bypass most DR. Aginst high AC foes 17-20 can encompass a large perecnt of your hits.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

I just have to point out that weapon threat range increases in the upcoming 3.5 rules will no longer stack, ie Keen enhancment and Improved Critical no longer result in a Scythe having a threat range of 18-20.
I must admit I have played a Cleric/Fighter/War Priest of quite high level who had a Scythe and very effective it was too.

Not as effective as wielding a greatsword, unless your damage bonus was 13 or higher. And if it was that high, fractional hit points per round more effective than a greatsword.

Flaming Burst or another such enhancement results in a Critical hit giving an extra 3d10 points of damage!

...read, "Flaming Burst or another such enhancement results in a lot of wasted money."

 

[wolff96]

I'm curious...

The only time I've ever even considered an Elemental Burst weapon is on a high critical weapon -- such as a Scimitar. Using such a weapon nets a lot of extra d10's of damage, 1d10 at a time.

However, a scythe master (especially if using the crit ability increase of the Weapon Master class) will do a much higher number of dice of damage with a x4 weapon... 3d10 normally, or 4d10 with the increased critical multiplier.

Can anyone tell me, using the math that permeates this thread and is over my head (I never did like statistics... ) which (if either) is actually worthwhile?

 

[Mike Sullivan]

I'm curious...

The only time I've ever even considered an Elemental Burst weapon is on a high critical weapon -- such as a Scimitar. Using such a weapon nets a lot of extra d10's of damage, 1d10 at a time.

However, a scythe master (especially if using the crit ability increase of the Weapon Master class) will do a much higher number of dice of damage with a x4 weapon... 3d10 normally, or 4d10 with the increased critical multiplier.

Can anyone tell me, using the math that permeates this thread and is over my head (I never did like statistics... ) which (if either) is actually worthwhile?

Neither is actually worthwhile.

They're mathematically nearly identical -- The pick/scythe gets 3d10 exactly 1/3rd as often as the rapier/falchion gets 1d10 (assuming all else is equal), and neither of them are as good as getting just the normal flaming property and an additional +1.

Examples:

+1 Keen, Flaming Burst Scimitar wielded by 18 Str Fighter with Weapon Specialization and Imp. Crit:

Normal Damage:
1d6 + 7 + 1d6 (flame) = 14 on average

Critical Damage:
2d6 + 14 + 1d6 + 1d10 = 30 on average

Percentage of hits which are criticals: 45% (this is under 3.0 rules, in which keen and imp. crit stack)

So, total expected damage per hit:
.65 * 14 + .45 * 30 = 22.6


+1 Keen, Flaming Burst Heavy Pick wielded by 18 Str Fighter with Weapon Spec. and Imp. Crit:

Normal Damage:

1d6 + 7 + 1d6 = 14 on average

Critical damage:

4d6 + 28 + 1d6 + 3d10 = 62 on average

Percentage of hits which are criticals: 15%

Total expected damage per hit:
.85 * 14 + .15 * 62 = 21.2


Compare to:

+2 Keen, Flaming Heavy Pick

Normal Damage:

1d6 + 8 + 1d6 = 15 on average

Critical damage:

4d6 + 32 + 1d6 = 49.5 on average

Same percentages

Total expected damage per hit:
15 * .85 + 49.5 * .15 = 20.175

...But don't forget the additional +1 to hit! Assuming that you hit on a 3+ for the +1 weapon and a 2+ for the burst weapon, then your actual expectations are:

.9 * 21.2 = 19.08 (burst weapon)
.95 * 20.175 = 19.16625 (+2 weapon)

And that's the best-case scenario for the flaming burst weapon -- if you're going from, say, needing a 10+ to hit to needing an 11+ to hit, then your expectations are:

.5 * 21.2 = 10.6 (burst weapon)
.55 * 20.175 = 11.09625 (+2 weapon)

In other words, Don't Get Burst Weapons. They suck.

 

[Darklone]

Neither is actually worthwhile.

They're mathematically nearly identical -- The pick/scythe gets 3d10 exactly 1/3rd as often as the rapier/falchion gets 1d10 (assuming all else is equal), and neither of them are as good as getting just the normal flaming property and an additional +1.

Mathematically they are mostly identical... but you have to consider that a weapon with a higher crit range (e.g. scimitar) is better against low AC monsters with few hitpoints (you don't need that supercrit damage to drop them) while a scythe is better against a monster that you only hit with an 19+ ...

Mike, or anyone else... did I get that right, flaming burst weapons only do extra damage on a crit? No extra d6 fire damage on normal hits?

Not that I used these silly +1d6 damage things at all...

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Mike, or anyone else... did I get that right, flaming burst weapons only do extra damage on a crit? No extra d6 fire damage on normal hits?

No, Flaming Burst (specifically -- some of the other "burst-like effects" work a little differently) does 1d6 fire damage on a normal hit, 1d6 + 1d10 damage on a x2 crit, 1d6 + 2d10 on a x3 crit, and 1d6 + 3d10 on a x4 crit. At least, that's how I interpret it. I think that there's an argument to be made for it doing a flat 1d10 (not 1d6 + 1d10) on a crit.

But it's worthless even with the more generous interpretation, so why not go with that?

 

[Darklone]

A big boom shows style, I gonna use that

Worthless stuff: All the better for "balance"!

 

[Saepiroth]

I say take a level or two of Monk, get Extra Stunning Attacks, Get Death Blow, get a Ki Focus scythe, and then play Grim Reaper.

Stun your target, than Coup de Grace your target.







Better get a black cowl into the mix, too. For style.

 

[Staffan]

A stunned target isn't helpless, and thus isn't eligible for coup de grace.