Seal of Binding+Divine Regeneration is NOT an automatic win

[theNater]

The damage just isn't there. It does 919-1846 damage(average 1382.5), and high level solo monsters have upwards of 1000 hp, with some of them exceeding 1500.

Assumptions, relevant rules, and formulas
A cleric with 30 wis and a +6 implement does 3d10+16 damage on the initial hit from Seal of Binding, with an additional 2d10+16 each time he sustains it. Divine Regeneration is quite capable of healing such a cleric through the damage Seal of Binding will cause him, so now it's just a question of duration.

A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world.

Unless a description says otherwise, you can sustain a power with a sustained duration for as long as 5 minutes.

So a power can be sustained for 5 minutes, and there are 10 6-second rounds in a minute. Our cleric can sustain this power for 50 rounds. That's one round of initial damage and 50 rounds of sustain damage, for a grand total of 103d10+816. Rolled damage ranges from 103-1030 with an average of 566.5.

Add 51 points to each total for each point of bonus damage the cleric has, and subtract 51 points for each applicable resistance the target has. A cleric using a +6 Symbol of Battle can use its daily power for up to an additional 30 points of damage.

Critical damage is not included in the above calculations. It caps out at 48 points, and in any case is not applicable to minimum damage or significant in average damage.

This does assume the cleric is the only source of damage. While most other damage sources available to the party are attacks, there are some questionable abilities like Wall of Fire that Seal of Binding may or may not protect its target from.

Motivations and rambling
I started thinking about this when I ran into a post in another thread indicating that this combo was an automatic win. I'd heard this before, but this was the first time the part of my brain that automatically disagrees with everything decided to kick in. I realized that some high-level creatures had damage-causing auras, which, in conjunction with the self-damage from Seal of Binding, might make it unsustainable. It turns out that if our cleric is in range of Orcus, Divine Regeneration isn't going to cut it.

So I dove for the Monster Manual. I confirmed my suspicions about Orcus and started checking the other high-level solo monsters. Only a very few of them had such damage auras, and many of them had auras with shorter ranges than the range on the Seal. Not much help there. A few of them did have interesting abilities that make the tactic much more awkward or downright impossible(Primordial Hydras and Runescribed Dracoliches were particularly hilarious), but it wasn't really solid enough.

Disheartened, I went to the PHB to confirm that auras would still operate when the target was stunned(they do, stun prevents actions, but not effects). Then I started thinking about damage, because even though these combos could burn through the Divine Regeneration, they wouldn't do it quickly, and if the Seal defeats the monster before the cleric is bloodied, then I can't really say I've shot down any commonly-accepted theories. That's what got me to thinking how long things would take, and that sparked a half-remembrance of a rule that some powers only lasted 5 minutes. I knew it was true for stances, but sustained powers?

Cautiously, I thumbed through the book, looking for the maximum duration on a sustained power. When I found the rule on page 278, elation began to creep up on me. Then that nitpicky part of my brain kicked in again. "Hold on a minute, there," it said. "Rounds were 6 seconds in 3rd edition. But this isn't 3rd edition."

Chagrined, I sought out the rule from page 266. After that, I just broke out the old calculator(doing rough estimate work in my head, of course) and came up with some damage totals. Comparing them against the hit point totals of some of the monsters gave me the results, and I set forth to write this post.

 

[DracoSuave]

I did some math on this as well, I'd be interested to see what you come up with. In my calculation, a cleric would require a Constitution score more than 200 points above the 30 maximum in order to have the hps necessary to power Seal of Binding against Orcus.

 

[Derren]

I did some math on this as well, I'd be interested to see what you come up with. In my calculation, a cleric would require a Constitution score more than 200 points above the 30 maximum in order to have the hps necessary to power Seal of Binding against Orcus.

Thats why you use the Demigod power Divine Regeneration which heals more damage every round than what Seal of Binding deals.

And I disagree that this combo is not an automatic win. First there are damage enhancers through leaders, non attack damage spells (legal according to WotC) and even if the solo monster survives that it is now very weakened while the PCs still have most of their resources.

 

[theNater]

I did some math on this as well, I'd be interested to see what you come up with. In my calculation, a cleric would require a Constitution score more than 200 points above the 30 maximum in order to have the hps necessary to power Seal of Binding against Orcus.

Let's do some rough estimates. Say we only count sustained damage, and the cleric does 27(which is average sustained damage) per round. Orcus has 1525 hit points, and his aura damage goes from 10 to 20 when he gets bloodied.

It takes the cleric about 56 rounds to defeat Orcus. Call it 50 for ease of calculation. During 25 rounds he's losing 7 more hit points than he's regenerating, and during the other 25 he drops by 17. So he needs 175+425=600 hit points. 30th level cleric provides 157 hit points. He's going to need way more hit points or some form of damage resistance for this to be sustainable.

Black Iron Armor may be available to him, and the necrotic resist on that would make it so he'd walk away only slightly injured.

And, of course, we don't need to increase his con score by 200. Divine Regeneration does its healing based on the highest ability score. Get con(or wis, or dex) up to 60, and he'll have nothing to worry about.

 

[DracoSuave]

Let's do some rough estimates. Say we only count sustained damage, and the cleric does 27(which is average sustained damage) per round. Orcus has 1525 hit points, and his aura damage goes from 10 to 20 when he gets bloodied.

It takes the cleric about 56 rounds to defeat Orcus. Call it 50 for ease of calculation. During 25 rounds he's losing 7 more hit points than he's regenerating, and during the other 25 he drops by 17. So he needs 175+425=600 hit points. 30th level cleric provides 157 hit points. He's going to need way more hit points or some form of damage resistance for this to be sustainable.

Black Iron Armor may be available to him, and the necrotic resist on that would make it so he'd walk away only slightly injured.

And, of course, we don't need to increase his con score by 200. Divine Regeneration does its healing based on the highest ability score. Get con(or wis, or dex) up to 60, and he'll have nothing to worry about.

I didn't take it affecting DR into account, but more as a bit of hyperbole to explain how many hps the cleric would need to play this game with Orcus and come out unscathed.

Also, don't forget that the Cleric is going to need a LOT more than 600 hit points.... Seal of Binding ends when the Cleric is bloodied.

 

[Runestar]

Also, don't forget that the Cleric is going to need a LOT more than 600 hit points.... Seal of Binding ends when the Cleric is bloodied.

On an expect value calculation, regen should cancel out seal of binding damage. Assume wis28, the cleric heals 28 hp each round, while seal of binding deals 2d10+14, or 25 damage on average. Necrotic damage can be canceled out by accessing necrotic resistance somehow (multiclass in wizard to nab that utility power if need be). Overall, the result is still a fairly anticlimatic battle with the solo BBEG, where everyone just stands there for 5 minutes twiddling their thumbs while the cleric slowly drains hp away...

 

[DracoSuave]

All that proves is Demigod is broken.

 

[theNater]

On an expect value calculation, regen should cancel out seal of binding damage. Assume wis28, the cleric heals 28 hp each round, while seal of binding deals 2d10+14, or 25 damage on average. Necrotic damage can be canceled out by accessing necrotic resistance somehow (multiclass in wizard to nab that utility power if need be). Overall, the result is still a fairly anticlimatic battle with the solo BBEG, where everyone just stands there for 5 minutes twiddling their thumbs while the cleric slowly drains hp away...

Yes, the cleric has ways to go toe-to-toe with Orcus using Seal of Binding. These do not, by themselves, put the cleric at any great risk.

However, Seal of Binding is not guaranteed to end the fight. It is unlikely that it will kill Orcus, and when Orcus does break out, the cleric is likely to be in a great deal of danger.

If the party just stands around while the cleric holds Orcus down, then the party gets to fight a heavily damaged Orcus instead of a healthy Orcus. While this is decidedly easier, it is still a dangerous thing to do. Once the party is resolved to this, many groups are clever enough to count up the cleric's damage all at once, rather than round-by-round, to see precisely how many hit points Orcus has when the fight resumes.

If, on the other hand, the party is running around, getting special tools and weapons into position, all the while entering and leaving the damage aura(while the cleric's best healing is unavailable, what with him being busy and all), we may still have an interesting event on our hands. I'm not sure if it still qualifies as a fight, but with the fighter and ranger busily setting up the special ballista while the wizard inscribes the mystic runes onto the bolt they are readying to fire in the split second after the cleric releases the Seal but before Orcus can dodge, we're not looking at boredom.

 

[Runestar]

However, Seal of Binding is not guaranteed to end the fight. It is unlikely that it will kill Orcus, and when Orcus does break out, the cleric is likely to be in a great deal of danger.

No, it certainly doesn't. While this is likely an exaggeration of the efficacy of said combo, reality isn't really much far off, since Orcus would be close enough to death for the rest of the party to just leap in and mop up after seal of binding wears off, without having to expend any resources. So while it is not entirely the 1-shot kill rumours purport it to be, it does come close enough.

At least, when this combo first becomes available at lv26, you can still average ~ 1200 damage (assuming the enemy is not somehow resistant to radiant damage), which is still enough to take down an appropriate lv solo like an ancient black/green dragon. 1300 damage at lv30 is still enough to almost 1-shot Orcus, unless he has a means of quickly healing himself (he does have 3 healing surges, after all), but even then, he still has to contend to the collective readied actions of the rest of the party.

 

[theNater]

...while it is not entirely the 1-shot kill rumours purport it to be, it does come close enough.

It is a mighty technique, but the point of this thread is that it is not that 1-shot kill.

At least, when this combo first becomes available at lv26, you can still average ~ 1200 damage (assuming the enemy is not somehow resistant to radiant damage), which is still enough to take down an appropriate lv solo like an ancient black/green dragon.

That makes it a probable kill, but note that the minimum damage is still under 1000 even at level 30. It's still not a guaranteed kill against any solo monster of appropriate level.

1300 damage at lv30 is still enough to almost 1-shot Orcus, unless he has a means of quickly healing himself (he does have 3 healing surges, after all), but even then, he still has to contend to the collective readied actions of the rest of the party.

This has joined my list of favorite things about 4th edition. Leaving a monster with 225 hit points is almost 1-shotting it. That just makes me go !

I have no doubt that a 30th level party can toss out 200+ damage in a round. I have a harder time figuring out how they do it without expending resources. Even if we let them use encounter powers(under the assumption that the encounter will be over at the end of the round), don't they all need to hit and get above-average damage?