Secret Doors are too secret. Thoughts?

[hamishspence]

vary the perception checks required?

like 15 for low tech races not known for subtle crafting, and 30 for extremely uber-secretive races.

Or: Secret, Top Secret, Black Project

 

[delericho]

I like the ideas of secret doors, but I am not really happy with how they've been implemented traditionally in RPGs.

In 3E, there is a search skill, but 3E introduced a convenient shorthand for searching. 'We take 10 searching the room' (when in a hurry) or 'We take 20 searching the room' (when not in a hurry).

This eliminates a lot of the boring nature of searching, while also eliminating all the randomness of outcome

The method I like is as follows:

1) When designing the encounter, the area is split up into key areas by the designer. Perhaps "the walls" are one area, "the desk" is another, and "the painting" is a third. The areas should be fairly broad - "the painting" would include the frame and the wall behind the painting as well, for example.

2) If there's anything hidden in an area, the designer determines whether it can be found by a casual search, or if it needs a detailed search. He also sets a DC for the Search.

3) When PCs enter the area, they have to declare where they are searching (which area), and also whether it's a casual or a detailed search. They then make a Search roll - you can take 10 on this roll, but cannot take 20. Additionally, you cannot retry - you either find whatever is hidden, or you do not.

A casual search takes 1 minute for each area. It is possible to perform this check without touching the item, so does not expose the character to traps/poison on the area in question. However, a casual search has no chance of finding something that requires a detailed search to find.

A detailed search takes 5 minutes for each area. It is not possible to perform this check without touching the items, so a failed search will expose the character to any traps/poison on the item (a successful check finds these dangers just in time). A detailed search automatically finds anything that only requires a casual search to find.

Example:

The baron's study contains his desk and chair, a bookshelf containing many books, several tapestries on the West wall, and a large painted map on the North wall. There is a secret door behind the map, a trapped secret drawer in the desk, and a secret door triggered by one of the books in the bookshelf.

The designer divides the room into five areas: the walls (including the door), the map, the tapestries, the furniture and the bookshelf. Detecting the secret door behind the map requires a detailed search of that area (DC 25). Finding the secret drawer requires a casual search of the furninture (DC 20), but finding the trap requires a detailed search (DC 30). Finding the secret door in the bookshelf requires only a casual search (DC 25).

---

This method gives the players some control over where they're searching, but it avoids the need to spend an age searching an area square by square (especially pointless if they're just going to take 20). It eliminates automatic success on searches, and it also means that a detailed search (sometimes required) is not without an element of risk.

I also think a passive Perception defence is a good thing, but more for the purpose of spotting ambushes and the like, rather than spotting 'secret' doors and traps. IMO, of course.

 

[Korgoth]

If, as the DM, you really really want/need the PCs to find a particular door, don't make it "secret" DUH.

Others, particularly Celebrim, have the right of it. Put the secret doors in for a reason. You can include clues to their location in other parts of the dungeon. They can be part of a puzzle or a plot point. They can also be pure "Easter Eggs" in that they are basically a bonus for being thorough (time management being another form of resource management, particularly with finite light sources, finite food supplies, wandering monsters, etc.).

I might even tuck a fun encounter away behind a secret door. But if something is behind a secret door, the party will probably miss it! So don't waste too much fun back there... though again, you can always give clues elsewhere in the dungeon.

Ever randomly rolled a "treasure map" on the scroll table and thought "Aw, man, I'm gonna reroll... I don't want to mess around with another map"? The "treasure map" could be a map of the dungeon you're already in... and maybe it will reveal the location of a secret door! Then, if the party gets this treasure item, they'll be excitedly trekking back to the other area/level where they now know there to be a hidden part of the complex. The treasure map may or may not mention the iron cow with the statue collection.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The guy building the secret door wanting to hide something sounds like a logical reason to me.

Sam

That's not an acceptable reason in 4E. If it's not fun, it's supposed to GTFO. Unfindable secret doors are not fun. Therefore they should leave unless you can somehow make them fun.

I mean, what's the purpose of a secret door in an adventure - to be found. If there aren't clues, and there's no reason to believe it's there, then you have a choice:

1) Lower the passive detection DC.

2) Don't waste your time with it.

I can buy that low-level PCs shouldn't just "find" doors passively, in which case, in low-level adventures, you should signpost them to some reasonable degree, or get the players to search the area looking for treasure, or the like.

I might even tuck a fun encounter away behind a secret door. But if something is behind a secret door, the party will probably miss it! So don't waste too much fun back there... though again, you can always give clues elsewhere in the dungeon.

Good suggestions, and hell, if they miss the door, who's to say you can't just stick the same encounter room in another dungeon, with a little tweaking

 

[webrunner]

Answer: Include two DCs:

One to notice something odd, that you can't quite place a door for: The bricks in this room seem to not line up as bricks should, but you don't nesissarily see where the disconnect is. There seems to be positions on the floor where there's less dust near the bookcases. The area is freshly painted. There's sounds coming from the walls. Etc. Make this one relatively easy, -5 from the actual door.

the other to actually find the door, the switch to open it, the place where you can hold to open it, or the actual position of the secret door behind the bookcase. This one they have to find.

if they see the clue and don't search that's their fault. If they don't see the clue, it means none of them really cares about perception, and therefore finding secret doors is not a priority.