Seeking Ideas to Build a Brass Dragon Cohort

Sekhmet

First Post
The vampire he got trounced by was CR 20+ Githyanki vampire, equipped like a PC. The Party average level is 14 with 8 players. The vamp using a 2-handed sword did 3/4 of his hit points in one round.
It did not help that the party was camping and only 1/2 the PC were present.

Somewhat off-topic.


Your complaint is that your 10HD Brass Dragon was owned by a CR 20 PLUS GITH VAMPIRE.

Flip that around for a moment. If you were an appropriately equipped CR20-25 Human Fighter, in combat against a couple of lv14s with a 10HD Brass Dragon, would you find it about normal to own the dragon in two hits and then continue to trounce the rest of the group?


I don't think the DM played the Gith Vamp well enough, else you all would have died and become his underlings.

Not to mention the Lich Queen would have had that Gith killed long ago.
 

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TanisFrey

First Post
Somewhat off-topic.


Your complaint is that your 10HD Brass Dragon was owned by a CR 20 PLUS GITH VAMPIRE.

Flip that around for a moment. If you were an appropriately equipped CR20-25 Human Fighter, in combat against a couple of lv14s with a 10HD Brass Dragon, would you find it about normal to own the dragon in two hits and then continue to trounce the rest of the group?


I don't think the DM played the Gith Vamp well enough, else you all would have died and become his underlings.

Not to mention the Lich Queen would have had that Gith killed long ago.
I said that I felt the dragon fared as well as can be expected when I was running him straight out of the MM with no feats and no combat magic items at all.

The Setup to the fight:
The caravan was a cover for the Baron of Cormyr to look into the reports of Drow attacks in the dales just over the pass. 5 of the PC plus my disguised dragon are with it. A meteorite passes very close over head and lands near by. 4 of the PC and a guard leave the caravan to investigate the meteorite. The caravan plans to keep on going and the party will rejoin later. The bored dragon slips out of caravans camp, changes into himself and chooses to join the investigation team. The gnome bard allows the now revealed dragon to tag along. The crash sight is more that a day ride away to they make camp.

The fight:
The vamp dim doors into the cleric tent and removes his holy symbol while trying dominate him. Wakes the cleric when the vamp bit him. The bard inspires greatness an some then inspires courge (+6/+7). The fighter runs up (unarmored) and helps the rouge and cleric trying to take the vamp. The dragon cast mage armor then breaths, no effect. The fighter is knocked out by subdual damage. The dragon steps in and does a full attack, claw and wing, no damage done through the DR. The Bard was strong enough to say she was going for help and teleported out. Per our discussion after with the DM, he said that the vamp knew that he had moments until some serious powerful backup arrived. He attack the dragon and the rouge and did over 3/4 of the dragons hit points in 2 hits and hits the rouge once. The dragon withdraws on the ground. The vamp knows out the cleric by subdual. The dragon not wishing to die when he has over 2000 years of life left, leaps into the air. The vamp knockout the grabs the downed fighter and dim doors away, the rouge is trying to use a wand of CLW on the vamp.

A minute later the bard is back with a Paladin and 2 mages. the vamp was feeding a short distance away drops the nearly killed fighter and takes off. The DM rolled 1 point shy of max con damage to the fighter leaving him with a Con of 1. A couple of CLW on the wing and seeing the reinforcements encourages the dragon to land. We scry the fighter and find him off in the woods. End of encounter.

Now my character faces some questions because:
1) She, a cleric of Sharress, seduced the Gay paladin of Sune. Very good disguise skill fooled him followed by using her 1 level of bard and the maxed out preform skill.
2) She did not tell anyone that her friend whom went off with Baron caravan was a dragon.
 
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Runestar

First Post
Few things to note about dragon PCs.

1) As PCs (or cohorts), you are expected to use the same stat generation method as the rest of your players (be it rolling or point buy) and allow them access to gear as a PC. If you ran the dragon right out of the MM, this means its stats would be way weaker than it should be. With 28 point buy, you would be shortchanging the dragon of roughly 4 points in str/dex/con/int (more with gear).

2) Dragon PCs aren't really formidable in combat, their usefulness lies in their other abilities like skills, movement modes, flight, senses and alternate breath weapons. They will be slaughtered in straight melee, which is why I suggested tricking out its breath weapon. Yes, this does risk making it a 1-trick pony, but at least it should be an effective one.

Here is a small excerpt regarding a friend's experiences with a dragon cohort.

[Sblock]The silver dragon in my campaign is actually an NPC, a cohort of the PC wizard. She started off as his dragon familiar (using the Dragon Familiar feat) and then became his dragon cohort (using the Dragon Cohort feat). So she started pretty weak and has slowly caught up to the rest of the party (at least to the other party members; the wizard actually has pulled ahead because his player does so much roleplaying and storyline stuff). The wizard's player has been very paranoid about exposing her to danger. She usually flies by and breathes with Maximize Breath. Only now is he realizing that she's turned into a tank, with by far the best AC and the second most hit points. I think he's going to put the wild special ability on her belt of giant strength and cloak of resistance. Up until now she's been heavily overshadowed in melee by the party's half-celestial, but I think she's starting to catch up, and will get even better at he next level because her damage will increase with her size.

She's also fairly versatile, and has by far the best assortment of skills in the party. She has 11 skills maxed out: Appraise, Knowledge (arcana, geography, nature), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim (cross class), Tumble (cross class), and Use Magic Device. The party has given her cure wands, magic missile wands, and even their staff of life. They made a staff of revivification and mass heal and gave it to her too. (She has clerical spells on her spell list, so she can use them even without Use Magic Device.) So she's often played the roll of advance scout and healer. She's frankly the only party member who actually knows how to get to the Labyrinth where they're headed, from her Knowledge (geography) (the NPC captain of their boat knows the way too), and she's the one who appraises all the party's treasure. I'd say that her role until now probably wouldn't satisfy most players, but then if a player had actually been playing her as a PC, she'd have seen more melee and focused much earlier on getting those wild magic items to buff her in combat. Several party members have +5 weapons, and indeed have had them for a while, but she's got only a +3 amulet of mighty fists. If a player had been running her, she's probably have a +5 amulet by now. If she had the +5 amulet and the +6 wild belt of giant strength, her attack bonus would rise above 30 (at only 15 hit dice).

I think probably since her natural weapons (other than the bite) don't do as much damage as the best manufactured melee weapons that she probably wouldn't deal out quite as much damage as a melee specialist of her ECL. When she gets to 22nd level and increases to large size, however, her bite will do the same damage as a large greatsword (but without the 1.5x Strength or 2x Power Attack alas), her claws will do the same damage as medium longswords (but with only .5x Strength), her wings will do the same damage as medium short swords, and her tail will do the same as a medium longsword but with 1.5x Strength and 2x Power Attack. When she gets her next feat at 24th level the tail will do damage like a medium greatsword. Since she just took Multiattack, her secondary attack will suffer only a -2 penalty. So they even have a benefit over iterative attacks with a manufacture weapon (plus she needs only one magic item to make them all magical and give them an enhancement bonus to their attack and damage rolls).

I think that she's probably not going to get as good in melee as the party's half-celestial barbarian2/cleric1/ranger2/fighter4/lightning warrior8, but I think she might do in melee as well as the party's half-celestial monk 17. She's certainly more versatile than the monk.

She's also gotten her own 1st-level spells now. We gave her guiding light to help the party's archer because the wizard's player has seen her mostly as an auxiliary, not a main combatant, having trouble seeing her as having grown well beyond his small-sized familiar. We did give her true strike, however, so that gives her a benefit that the half-celestial combat specialists in the campaign don't have.

Her big weakness, of course, is fire. "Dragons: color-coded for your convenience." (Order of the Stick) :D She has decent but not outstanding saves. Once the wizard gets the wild ability on her cloak of resistance and boots it from +3 to +5, she's actually going to have the second-best Will save in the party. She has excellent ability scores: Str, Int and Wis all 26, Cha 24, Con 22, Dex 20. Even without the cloak she has the third-best Fort save in the party.

She has died twice. The first time, when I think she was still a wyrmling, a group of kobold elite scouts shot her out of the sky when she was spotting for the party's spellcasters. The arrows knocked her unconscious, and the fall killed her. Ever since, the wizard's player has been paranoid about her dying again, and that's why he gave her the +6 bracers of armor and the +4 ring of protection. Her low touch AC--he has visions of her getting disintegrated--motivated him to bump her +4 gloves of Dexterity (useful only in her humanoid forms) into +6 wild gloves of Dexterity. The second time she died, a kobold sorcerer and cronies nuked the party with delayed-blast fireballs. The wizard died too. The dragon's vulnerability to fire definitely played a role. I think had she not had the vulnerability she wouldn't have died then. Oddly enough he has done nothing to try to shore up her vulnerabilities, say, by getting her a ring of fire resistance or a ring of featherfalling. (I think though that he might have started carrying around a featherfall spell.

Even the push for the wild gloves, belt and cloak have come from me. He's been pretty content to have her fly out of range of danger. One day the ship they had taken from epic pirates got its rudder snagged. She and the half-celestial lightning warrior went underwater to check it out. A group of dire sharks swarmed them. The player was so afraid that she would get grabbed and pulled into the depths to drown that he had her swim to the surface and fly out of their reach on her first turn, leaving the half-celestial alone underwater to fend for himself. Then about 30 sahuagin swarmed over the sides of the ship, so the rest of the party stayed occupied trying to protect their crew from dying at the hands of the sahuagin and effectively rendering the ship immobile, so nobody came to the aid of the half-celestial. I think someone playing the dragon as a PC would have had a better idea of her capabilities and might not have had her flee, but he still thought of her as his little wyrmling. :D

I started playing a red dragon hatchling at 1st level under the Savage Species rules in the Shackled City Adventure Path. (Like so many other campaigns, it lasted only a couple of levels.) Dragon issue 332 contained the level advancement tables for the chromatic dragons. I think I got to 3rd level, which is where the red hatchling gets flight. I found that at first level he did at least as well in melee as the party's paladin, and probably better. He did decent damage and had good hit points. We fought a grell or something like that that floated down, grabbed one of the other PCs, and floated up out of range with him. It was very frustrating that my dragon couldn't fly--and didn't have any ranged attacks either at that level. (The red dragon doesn't get a breath weapon until 10th level [7 hit dice].) It was nice when he got flight at 3rd level. We never did encounter any cold damage, so his big vulnerability didn't come into play. Indeed we rarely had to make any saving throws at those levels, but he did have good bonuses. I think he had to wear barding as a hatchling starts without any natural armor. I think though that I put his highest or second-highest ability score in Dexterity too.

I suspect that a dragon PC compares favorably at very low levels, then maybe starts to sag a bit, but then later compares favorably again.[/Sblock]

Hope it helps. Or at least makes for an entertaining read. :p
 

TanisFrey

First Post
Nice story.

For the last game I made sure that the PC was ready and left the dragon to the side. I was expecting the session to be 90% role playing and no fights. As it turns out the DM had other plans, thus forcing the dragon into a fighting role. My having nothing prepared for the dragon, so I grabbed my MM and ran him out of the book. I had him cast a couple of spell I felt based on his personality and god of choice he would know.

The Vamp he went toe-to-toe with for one round was 16 level fighter gith. The DM made him to be a challenge to the WHOLE party and we faced it half the party and were taken by surprise. No one was suppressed that we got creamed. Now, we are for warned of it and wont be taken as easily by surprise.

As far as stats I will ask the DM about it.
 

TanisFrey

First Post
Few things to note about dragon PCs.

1) As PCs (or cohorts), you are expected to use the same stat generation method as the rest of your players (be it rolling or point buy) and allow them access to gear as a PC. If you ran the dragon right out of the MM, this means its stats would be way weaker than it should be. With 28 point buy, you would be shortchanging the dragon of roughly 4 points in str/dex/con/int (more with gear).
I feed the stat array for a young brass dragon into a excel spreadsheet I made for calculating skills. The Young brass dragon comes out at a 31 point buy. It is 5 points behind the PC whom are using Per the DM 36 point buy. The Juvenile brass dragon is a 36 point buy. The only stat difference between Young and Juvenile is the strength jumps from 15 to 17.

I will have to check with the DM to see if he will let my up the base stats. I mainly want to be consistence with what he does with dragons
 
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Runestar

First Post
I feed the stat array for a young brass dragon into a excel spreadsheet I made for calculating skills. The Young brass dragon comes out at a 31 point buy.
What I meant was that you would first use point buy to determine its base stats, then add the dragon's stat mods on top of it.

For example, a young brass dragon gets +4str, +4con, +2int/wis/cha. Say with 28 point buy, I give it str/dex/con/int 14 and wis/cha10. It ends up with str18, dex14, con18, int16, wis12, cha12.

Plus, at this lv, it should have at least a +4 enhancement bonus to str (either from your fighter's redundant belt of str+4, or a spell), plus other buffs like haste, greater heroism and amulet of mighty fists. The dragon is also a great dumping ground for all the misc magic gear your party has outgrown, like cloaks of resistance, bracers of armour (or mithral barding) or stat boosting gear.

Improved multiattack is attractive, as it lets you make 5 attacks at your best bab.

But yeah, you will find it has a lot of problems in combat namely due to its inability to overcome dr. Consider taking Silver fang feat (champions of valour, see if your DM will waive the rp requirement) to let you overcome dr/silver, and procure a ring of adamantine touch (MIC) for dr/adamantine. So you can at least fight vampires and stoneskin. :eek:
 
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TanisFrey

First Post
Improved multiattack is attractive, as it lets you make 5 attacks at your best bab.

But yeah, you will find it has a lot of problems in combat namely due to its inability to overcome dr. Consider taking Silver fang feat (champions of valour, see if your DM will waive the rp requirement) to let you overcome dr/silver, and procure a ring of adamantine touch (MIC) for dr/adamantine. So you can at least fight vampires and stoneskin. :eek:
Yes, I am eying that feat and a Amulet of Mighty First +2 for 24,000gp is very attractive for a dragon. It adds +2 to attack and damage to ALL of his natural weapons. I have looked at it for Monks and though that overpriced for a monk, but a dragon is a whole other story. Plus it will grant all of his natural attacks count as magic, that's two age categories early.

For feats I am looking at:
Multiattack
Improved Multiattack
Power Attack
Shape Breath
Heighten Breath
Entangling Exhalation

Yes, I know that I had mentioned that Entangling Exhalation may be broken but it automatically cuts damage in half. That how it balances out.

Not sure on what 2 flaws to take yet. Maybe two of following:
Inattentive (-4 to listen and spot)
Slow (land based speed is halved)
Unreactive (-6 to initiative)
 

Runestar

First Post
Now how did I ever forget entangling breath? :p

If I am reading it right, it entangles for no save so long as your foes take damage. But 3d6 doesn't seem like a lot of damage, and fire resistance can easily block it all out (not forgetting damage is halved, and the possibility of successful reflex saves). You may find that even successfully dealing 1 point of damage can be difficult!

Don't see the point of power attack (you really can't afford the attack penalty).
 

TanisFrey

First Post
Now how did I ever forget entangling breath? :p

If I am reading it right, it entangles for no save so long as your foes take damage. But 3d6 doesn't seem like a lot of damage, and fire resistance can easily block it all out (not forgetting damage is halved, and the possibility of successful reflex saves). You may find that even successfully dealing 1 point of damage can be difficult!

Don't see the point of power attack (you really can't afford the attack penalty).
Combine Entangling Breath with Heighten Breath and having a Belt of dwarven kind and a draught of breath weapon substitution (acid, cold or electricity). He will be doing something other than fire at 1/2(3d6) and a DC:19-23. It should end up doing more than his base breath weapon damage. 1/2(3d6)+1d6 per round of entangle effect and what ever his friends can do to the entangled foe. This is well worth the 1400 gp cost of the Draught.

Remember breath weapon DC are found by 10 & CON bonus & 1/2 hit dice. The Heighten breath can push it up from there by an amount up to his Con bonus at the cost of slowing down the next breath weapon by an equal number of rounds to the boost.

Power attack - Dragons have full BAB for their Hit Dice. It is very common for dragons. When he is equipped with an Amulet of Mighty First +X and he uses a power attack that x, he hits just as often and does more damage to all of his attacks.
 

TanisFrey

First Post
The DM as said no to the Heighten Breath and Maximize Breath feats. He feels that this can lead to larger dragons using one breath weapon per fight but that attack would be designed to end the fight without the PC having a chance to fight it.

I thought that Entangling Exhalation was over powering, because it rendered the victim helpless (like the entangle spell). Until it was pointed out that there is an condition in the back of the PB called entangled (p.308).

Someone who is entangled suffers the following penalties a half speed, unable to run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty on effective Dexterity. Entangled creatures have to make a Concentration check to cast (DC:15+spell level).

I don't remember anything else that imposes this condition, but it's been a while since I read the core books.

I proposed the following feats for him:
Power Attack
Shape Breath
Multiattack
Entangling Exhalation

and possible getting Practiced spellcaster via a flaw.

Gear would be:
Ring of Assume Humanoid Form, 51,400 gp
Ring of Protection +1, 2000 gp
Amulet of Mighty Fists +2, 24,000 gp
Belt of Dwarvenkind, 14,900 gp
Bracers of Armor +1, 1,000 gp
Heward's Handy Haversack, 2000 gp
Draught of Metabreath: 2x Acid, 1,400 gp each
Draught of Metabreath: 2x Cold, 1,400 gp each
Draught of Metabreath: 2x Electricity, 1,400 gp each

The ring of assume humanoid form is custom written ring based on a polymorph continuous/at will effect, usable by dragons only, limited spell effect.

If anyone has the Dragons of Faerun book, Is there anything in it that I might want in the future?
 

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