Sell me on the Warlock

[Otterscrubber]

I like that warlock posted by Gwarok Although all your 3rd level spells are anti-magic spells in one regard or another. I'd replace one of them with tongues so you could really get some sneaky spy synergy with disguise self and also ad a few charm/suggestion spells in there.

P.S. - Contact other plane requires an Int roll to avoid badness. 9 Int is going to make that hard. Scrying is fun........

 

[Psychometrika]

Must all bards take vicious mockery? All clerics sacred flame? All druids shillelagh?

Seems that is the implication I'm getting from some.

Of course not. However, none of those classes have abilities directly tied to a specific spell like the Warlock is to Eldritch Blast. You can work around not having it with Pact Blade or other cantrips from the Pact Tome, but the Warlock's limited number of spell slots relative to the full casters you listed generally means it will be spamming some cantrip or basic attacks regardless.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Of course not. However, none of those classes have abilities directly tied to a specific spell like the Warlock is to Eldritch Blast. You can work around not having it with Pact Blade or other cantrips from the Pact Tome, but the Warlock's limited number of spell slots relative to the full casters you listed generally means it will be spamming some cantrip or basic attacks regardless.

Covered already. But since you jumped into the pool, I will ask the same of you. If those other cantrips had a few opportunity costing class choices designed to augment them, would they elevate to "must have" territory? Would your cleric be compelled to take sacred flame at that point? Would you, as a bard, need have vicious mockery? Would all druids be expected to have shillelagh?

 

[procproc]

I've found three basic builds for warlocks:

1. The "classic" Chr-based EB warlock: War X, focused on Chr (with Con secondary)
2. Dex-based bladelock: War X, focused on Dex and Chr
3. Str-based bladelock, Ftr 1/War X or Pal 2/War X, focused on Str and Chr

The first and third are disallowed by the rules of this thread, and the second has a good write-up on the first page. I don't know that you're really going to find a lot of options that are mechanically distinct from these in pure warlock.

Despite the "no multiclassing" rule, I'm going to talk about my own experience playing #3. I'm playing a fiend bladelock Ftr 1/War 5 right now. I have EB, but no AB and I cast it very rarely; my primary role is party tank, using longsword + shield. (I went variant human as Ftr 1 to take Heavy Armor Mastery, which synergizes very well with the temporary HP.) I have Fiendish Vigor, Devil's Sight, and Thirsting Blade as my invocations, and while AB is a possibility in two more levels, it's by no means a certainty. I think my damage output is actually higher with throwing axes than it is with EB, and as I'm prioritizing Str over Chr, I don't think that AB would change that. I usually use EB instead of axes, but mostly for flavor/story reasons.

Playing the character has felt anything but repetitive. At lower levels, I would often cast Hex or Hellish Rebuke, but as I've leveled there's great tension between Darkness, Fireball, and Armor of Agathys for my limited spell slots. The character essentially plays as a fighter with a limited selection of spells to cast and a periodically-refreshing pool of temporary hps.

Honestly, I think they made a relatively large design error in not giving the bladelock access to heavy armor -- it requires a decent investment in Str to use effectively anyway, so it's not exactly a free-roll, and it would enable the kind of Elric-inspired character that I think a lot of people wanted it to be without requiring multiclassing. I think that topic has been discussed to death in the past, though; I know I've probably put in a dollar's worth of my two cents in older threads.

 

[Psychometrika]

Covered already. But since you jumped into the pool, I will ask the same of you. If those other cantrips had a few opportunity costing class choices designed to augment them, would they elevate to "must have" territory? Would your cleric be compelled to take sacred flame at that point? Would you, as a bard, need have vicious mockery? Would all druids be expected to have shillelagh?

Personally, I never expect any class to take anything. That said, if those theoretical optional class choices made those cantrips the optimal choice by a clear margin I would expect to see that choice more often even though as DM or player I don't pressure people to play a particular way. However, I don't think would would be very good design choice.

The problem with eldritch blast is that a 1d12+Chr force damage ranged attack that does not use up resources is one of the most efficient options in the game. It's almost too good. Also, it doesn't help that valor bards, eldritch knights, and bladesingers also make effective gishes which makes it hard for bladelocks to shine unless they multiclass.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Personally, I never expect any class to take anything. That said, if those theoretical optional class choices made those cantrips the optimal choice by a clear margin I would expect to see that choice more often even though as DM or player I don't pressure people to play a particular way. However, I don't think would would be very good design choice.

Your first sentence seems at odd with the rest. It's like you admit to the fact that the cantrips would still not be "must haves", but then try to muddy it for some reason.

The problem with eldritch blast is that a 1d12+Chr force damage ranged attack that does not use up resources is one of the most efficient options in the game. It's almost too good.

Perhaps more people think its "almost too good" because they too are mistaken as to what the spell actually does? Just a guess. [Hint: It doesn't do 1d12+Cha...]

Also, it doesn't help that valor bards, eldritch knights, and bladesingers also make effective gishes which makes it hard for bladelocks to shine unless they multiclass.

This is an opinion not shared by all.

 

[Psychometrika]

Your first sentence seems at odd with the rest. It's like you admit to the fact that the cantrips would still not be "must haves", but then try to muddy it for some reason.


Perhaps more people think its "almost too good" because they too are mistaken as to what the spell actually does? Just a guess. [Hint: It doesn't do 1d12+Cha...]

This is an opinion not shared by all.

Whoops...1d10+cha...but the point still stands. Also, you seem to be conflating the different definitions of "expect". One is predictive (I expect it to rain tomorrow) and the other declares necessity (I expect you to get to work on time). Obviously, if the other classes received cantrip abilities I would expect (predict) to see them played more but I would not expect ("must have") my fellow players to use them.

 

[Ancalagon]

Wait... don't you need an evocation to make EB +cha? I mean it's a good choice, but there are other good evocations you could be taking...

I think that the warlock runs out of spells so fast that his/her *need* for a good combat cantrip is a lot higher than other classes.

 

[Ancalagon]

double post please ignore

 

[Guest 6801328]

Wait... don't you need an evocation to make EB +cha?

You might want to change that to "Invocation" before somebody uses it against you.

And, yes, you do.