D&D 5E Sell/unsell me on Magic Resistance and Legendary Resistance

[Celtavian]

I'll add my experience playing a wizard to 15 and running two campaigns to 7 and 11.

I find the effective of magic resistance rests heavily on whether the creature has good saves and stats. Magic Resistance is phenomenal when the creature has a good save or stat that works against the spell or effect. If they don't have either, magic resistance is a minor speed bump. Given the wide array of stats you can attack, Magic Resistance isn't so bad. Even in 3E a lot of powerful creatures only missed saves on a 1. I'm ok with Magic Resistance.

Now Legendary Resistance is another matter. This definitely affected my spell choices. I found myself avoiding spells with saves as they ended up being useless against creatures with Legendary Resistance. Given the short duration of 5E combats and the other inherent limitations of spells like saving every round and magic resistance, I found myself choosing spells with attack rolls. Why bother having a spell that allows a save if the monster is going to easily shrug it off while everyone else is adding damage. You feel like you wasted your time when a creature uses Legendary Resistance to shrug off one of your rare higher level spells. It's must more reliable to use a spell with an attack roll that will do some guaranteed damage and possibly an additional effect. Legendary Resistance narrowed my spell selection substantially and forced me into attack roll spells or spells with no saves. That was its most dramatic effect.

I'm still not sure how much I like the Legendary Resistance mechanic. I understand why it is in the game as a single bad save can end a combat quickly. It does make casters like wizards feel impotent and put a higher premium on casters like warlocks or sorcerers that do more damage.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The thing I hate most about Legendary Resistance is that it's so gimmicky and metagamey. Against legendary resistance, for example, it matters hugely whether a given spell is resisted via saving throw or ability check (Maze). Otto's Irresistible Dance becomes terrific because there is no initial saving throw, Wall of Force is notable for granting no save, etc.

I understand that Legendary Resistance is intended to cancel out more than just spells: it's supposed to cancel out Battlemaster maneuvers, Stunning Strike, etc. But I can't help wondering whether most monsters wouldn't be better-served by what is essentially a built-in high-level Counterspell ability instead. What if dragons/krakens/vampires/etc., instead of having Legendary Resistance, had the ability to use their reaction against any spell that affects them to attempt to instantly negate that spell, a la 5E Counterspell/Dispel Magic (depending on whether or not it's an instantaneous effect) and similar to AD&D's MR%? Say let's an adult red dragon has Charisma-based Magic Resistance +10, so it has to beat a DC 15 on Charisma (Magic Resistance) +10 to negate Hold Monster or DC 16 to negate Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, just as if it were casting Counterspell except without range limits, sight limitations, and the possibility of a counter-counterspell. Now it wouldn't matter whether someone is trying to use a Meteor Swarm or a Maze or a Disintegrate or a Wall of Force--they all work pretty much equally well on the dragon/titan/whatever, from the Magic Resistance perspective. You can either cap it at 3 attempts per day or just drop that aspect of magic resistance entirely and say it works as long as the dragon's reaction is free.

I think actively negating hostile magic ("water off a duck's back") is significantly cooler from an in-game perspective than... whatever it is that Legendary Resistance is supposed to be doing.

 

[Jester David]

Magic resistance is a big part of the game. There are many creatures against which magic simply did not work. That's part of the lore and the story, the counterpoint of monsters resisting mundane weapons. They encourage alternate tactics and force players to consider different strategies than just relying on Plan-A.
Getting rid of it doesn't really add anything to the game. It makes the players slightly more likely to have wasted a spell slot, but it's not like anyone worries about the DM wasting the monster's cool power because the player has Evasion or a resistance.


Legendary Resistance is like democracy. It sucks. It's terrible and easy to game and riddled with inherent, fundamental problems that leave it open to abuse. But it's better than the alternative.
Without something like this, it's too easy to hit a solo type monster with action denial spells or debuffs and then wail on them.
A few things were tried. 4e gave many solos the ability to roll saves at the start of their turn and the option to shake off effects. But sometimes that just didn't work as well. Bad rolls happened.
Legendary Resistances are basically codified fudging. The DM doesn't need to say it's being used, just that the monster succeeds. That's behind the screen.

 

[C-F-K]

A "save or suck/die" spell should always use it, but failing a damage spell probably isn't that important unless already low on HP.

But how does that BBEG know which spell it should or shouldn't save?
I know that most players say "I'm casting X spell, make a save." but IMHO opinion, the BBEG doesn't know that.
If it sees a wall of fire coming it's way, yes it's clear. But a normal spell like hold person or feeblemind? What are the signs? If the BBEG has the spell in it's own repertoire, it can recognize the V/S parts of the spell.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

But how does that BBEG know which spell it should or shouldn't save?
I know that most players say "I'm casting X spell, make a save." but IMHO opinion, the BBEG doesn't know that.

It depends on the table, and the DM's specific ruling on the matter. If you don't include the name as part of the casting ritual, then you need to decide whether the monster randomly wastes a Legendary on a trivial effect, or if there's some other way for them to figure it out.

It's a lot like the parry/shield rules - you could rule that you don't know the attack result before you decide to use it, but if you did rule that way then it's going to make a lot of frustration on both sides. It's way easier to just say that such things are fairly obvious to everyone on the scene.

 

[Leatherhead]

It makes me wish they opted to bring back the condition track instead.

That's the single mechanic I miss the most out of all that could have been.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

But how does that BBEG know which spell it should or shouldn't save?
I know that most players say "I'm casting X spell, make a save." but IMHO opinion, the BBEG doesn't know that.
If it sees a wall of fire coming it's way, yes it's clear. But a normal spell like hold person or feeblemind? What are the signs? If the BBEG has the spell in it's own repertoire, it can recognize the V/S parts of the spell.

Do you apply this same logic to Counterspell? Caster has to Counterspell blind? If so then it's probably fine to do the same thing to Legendary Resistance.

 

[Tshiow]

Legendary resistance and magic resistance, resistance to elemental damage, increase in hit points coupled with the decrease in spell slots available to full casters and the saving throw each new round mechanic have had a huge impact on a caster's effectiveness in combat. Add on concentration rules and casters in 5e cannot even really focus on buffing party members. So yeah, it's harsh.

 

[C-F-K]

Do you apply this same logic to Counterspell? Caster has to Counterspell blind? If so then it's probably fine to do the same thing to Legendary Resistance.

Well that would be a follow up question...

But it was more a question to all!

My thoughts are: Yes and no. When we see it black/white, the BBEG doesn't always know and will use things like legendary Resistance, Shield and counterspell when he/she is in most danger, like <25% HP. Unless the BBEG has the spell in it's repertoire or has been hit with it before.

As a DM I know it can be no fun for me and all the other players when the main evil dude is hit with a hold person spell at round 1, to receive full blows of the party and kill it in round 3... And rule 1 of every game is to have fun.

 

[CapnZapp]

That is what I have been thinking as well. Nerf Legendary Resistance some (spend a reaction or legendary action maybe) and buff Magic Resistance some (disadvantage on magic attacks that target the creature maybe)

I suggested using up Legendary Actions.

But mostly I suggested "after the fact" saves that make the monster recover from effects rather than simply preventing them.

The theory being; seeing your only level 8 slot fizzle and the monster didn't even roll!

...is more of a downer than seeing your spell take hold, but possibly only for half a round or so. That way, your spell might not have won the day all by itself, but it still did something. It wasn't just a complete waste.

Don't think I've found any responses to this bit, yet anyway!