Selling loot for half price - why?

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

You want to talk about something really crazy with economics in D&D? How is it possible that a high level fighter carry's around the wealth of an entire kingdom in his sheath?

In our world, the soldier carries around several times the annual income of many 3rd world villages on a regular basis. The regular M-1 Abrams tank driver is driving the wealth of entire nations... And don't get started on the F-16 pilots.

 

[mmadsen]

In our world, the soldier carries around several times the annual income of many 3rd world villages on a regular basis. The regular M-1 Abrams tank driver is driving the wealth of entire nations... And don't get started on the F-16 pilots.

Right, but those soldiers and pilots aren't acting as individuals; they have the backing of a powerful government. Throughout history, soldiers have carried amazing wealth about, because the were aristocrats, and their gear was the best they could afford.

If individuals are walking around with powerful weaponry, that's typically a sign that the local government is weak and cannot control the land it claims. And if the government is weak and can't keep out foreign mercenaries, what are we paying them taxes for?

 

[pemerton]

If individuals are walking around with powerful weaponry, that's typically a sign that the local government is weak and cannot control the land it claims. And if the government is weak and can't keep out foreign mercenaries, what are we paying them taxes for?

Well, this really turns the focus from the economics of D&D, to its politics. Which often don't make much sense either.

Expeditious Retreat Press's Magical Medieval Society goes to some lengths to try to explain that rulers in a MMS won't necessarily be high-level, because it is their status (based on ancestry and other social ties) and not their raw personal power that is the foundation of their rulership.

Medieval history suggests, however, that, regardless of status, weak leaders will survive only if they enjoy the support of those with power. Given the capacity of high-level PCs to (for example) destroy entire armies and raze entire cities, it stands to reason that they should be among the most politically significant players in the typical campaign world. But D&D has always tended to treat them as peripheral at best - doing the bidding of rulers, rather than acting as kingmakers, or carving new kingdoms out of the wilderness rather than being the power behind the throne in the metropolis.

 

[S'mon]

If individuals are walking around with powerful weaponry, that's typically a sign that the local government is weak and cannot control the land it claims. And if the government is weak and can't keep out foreign mercenaries, what are we paying them taxes for?

Personally I've never ran a world where footloose adventurers pay taxes; and out on the frontier, the border villagers don't pay taxes either - the kingdom wants them there on the periphery as a buffer for the actual tax paying areas in the core. In return for a high risk of being eaten by orc or dragon, you get to farm your own land tax free and ask wandering adventurers for aid against the orcs.

 

[S'mon]

Expeditious Retreat Press's Magical Medieval Society goes to some lengths to try to explain that rulers in a MMS won't necessarily be high-level, because it is their status (based on ancestry and other social ties) and not their raw personal power that is the foundation of their rulership.

Medieval history suggests, however, that, regardless of status, weak leaders will survive only if they enjoy the support of those with power. Given the capacity of high-level PCs to (for example) destroy entire armies and raze entire cities, it stands to reason that they should be among the most politically significant players in the typical campaign world. But D&D has always tended to treat them as peripheral at best - doing the bidding of rulers, rather than acting as kingmakers, or carving new kingdoms out of the wilderness rather than being the power behind the throne in the metropolis.

Re MMS - ironically, if you look at eg English medieval history, it would probably be more accurate to say that only those kings with a heck of a lot of raw personal power, usually great warriors as well as leaders, lasted long as king. Sometimes you get a puppet monarch, but weak rulers were commonly overthrown in short order. Belief in 'divine right of kings' seems largely post-medieval.

On the second point, I've had PCs as both peripheral and as kingmakers, including mounting coups and leading invasions. There were two great articles on courtly intrigue in White Dwarf (one in WD 89, shortly before it ceased being an RPG mag). The fact is though that politics can be a lot more dangerous than a dungeon, and powerful states have powerful rulers who will react with lethal threat to PC threats. The safest thing is to make yourself loyal to those already in power.

I think one reason you get less kingmaking stuff than is realistic is that some GMs feel it threatens their vision of their world, or voids published material. Personally I love it, being able to eg tell player in the new campaign how their new Norse Fighter PC Guthric won glory in the personal guard of the High King Sigurd of Trafalgis in the sack of Jrebb, Citadel of the Priest Kings, in the previous campaign, when back then Sigurd was the PC and the new PC was a nameless redshirt NPC follower.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Totally speaking for myself here but I don't want full and detailed economics in D&D. I play D&D to escape from the real world, not replicate it.

I got some of my best plot ideas from the real world. I especially recommend reading up on the black arms market (something which I hope most posters herre aren't personally familiar with) - that stuff makes for some great role-playing!

 

[mmadsen]

Personally I've never ran a world where footloose adventurers pay taxes; and out on the frontier, the border villagers don't pay taxes either - the kingdom wants them there on the periphery as a buffer for the actual tax paying areas in the core. In return for a high risk of being eaten by orc or dragon, you get to farm your own land tax free and ask wandering adventurers for aid against the orcs.

D&D is definitely more western than medieval.

 

[S'mon]

D&D is definitely more western than medieval.

Yes - Gygax's inspiration is clearly the Western - but this is hardly a-historical, buffer areas like eg the Anglo-Scottish borders of medieval Britain had a lot in common with the typical D&D milieu. Hm, makes me want to put kilted orcs with Glaswegian accents in my next game...

 

[Chiaroscuro23]

There's no economics there to worry about. To prove it, take a step back: How are prices for magic items set? They're not set by a "market", they're set by game designers concerned about balance as it relates to the artificial exponential expansion of PC resources.

Nor is the sale-at-50% the result of economics. There are economic principles which would matter if you cared to emulate it in game, but I have to say it'd be pretty silly when the list price is wholly artificial to then fight about what the realistic percentage of that price a wizard's guild would be willing to pay is.

So the main consideration, IMO, is how it affects balance. Does RAW expect PCs to sell about half their wealth, so they should be at 75% of the received value to match the table? When I DM I usually give treasure matched to PCs. If I have a bastard-sword-wielding cleric of Pelor, he finds a Sun Blade in a dragon's treasure hoard. But I'm playing in AoW right now, and in a pre-written adventure that won't necessarily work. Our tank uses a two-hander, but the only magic weapons we found early on were daggers (+1 and +2, respectively) and a +1 short sword. The DM kindly let us trade the daggers at "full price" for a two hander +2 and some CLW wands... is that what the designers expected when they put crappy treasure in the adventure? Or did they expect us to get half value out of that +2 dagger, except on the off chance that we had an invisible blade in the group. (And let's face it, in AoW the IB could use some help since it's all undead, all the time.)

That's the key question. Magic items are a point buy subsystem masquerading in proto-capitalist clothes. There's no real market there.

 

[frankthedm]

Magic items are a point buy subsystem masquerading in proto-capitalist clothes.

Bingo!