Selling spells = broken?

[aboyd]

Thank you all sooooo much. I heavily modified what I'm about to show you. Initially, the DCs were all about 10 lower. However, after reading here about how difficult it should be to sell spells, I went with this revision. Essentially, perform a Gather Information check, with the following outcome:

DC	Result
15	no spell sold but you got a good lead; you may add 2 to your next check
20	someone wants your level 0 spell
25	someone wants your level 1 spell
30	someone wants your level 2 spell
34	someone wants your level 3 spell
38	someone wants your level 4 spell
42	someone wants your level 5 spell
45	someone wants your level 6 spell
48	someone wants your level 7 spell
51	someone wants your level 8 spell

I added all sorts of rules around that table. For example, PCs sell spells for half price, just like everything else in the Equipment section of the PHB. Also, you must pre-select spells to sell each day, and they must be of the school/sub-school Abjuration, Divination, Transmutation, or Healing. They can't have a range of personal, can't have an area of effect that is an emanation centered on the caster, and can't have a duration measured in rounds (so for example, nobody will buy a Haste spell, even though it's in the Transmutation school).

Doing this forces a couple things. First, it forces the spell caster to not assemble a combat spell list, pretending he could sell Seeking Rays or something. Thus, if something were to come up, the spell caster would have a mostly peaceful list of spells, and be at a disadvantage. I want that to be part of the "price" for essentially becoming a merchant. But the second thing it does is help emulate a more complicated system I initially created. By that I mean, I originally had a system where extra rolls would mean you found someone who wants a spell, but you don't have that spell yet, so they must come back tomorrow. But then I got into trouble with Sorcerers who will never have access to alternate spells on different days, and so I had exceptions going, and with all the extra rolls, it got ugly. Thus, in the end, it's just a question of "did your commonly purchased spell sell or not?"

Although the DCs are high, a 1st level spell caster with no points in Gather Information will likely still sell a few zero level spells each week. Thus, he or she would earn about 7 or 8 gold a week, which is more than most professions. The guy playing the 6th level cleric in my game can already hit DCs in the 30s. I allow the Divine Insight spell from the SpC, plus I allow Aid Another, a +2 bonus if you are of "Great Renown" (similar to the Leadership feat bonus), and I even allow an all-day Perform (Act/Oratory/Sing) to override the Gather Info d20 rolls if desired. I particularly like that last one as it encourages teamwork, and it promotes something like the "snake oil selling charlatans" from Puff the Magic Dragon, if you saw that movie.

Doing the Perform check doesn't mean the spell caster no longer needs to do the Gather Info checks. It just means the Perform score overrides the Gather Info d20 roll. The 1d4 +1 roll, which determines how many hours the Gather Info takes, still applies. Thus a Perform can still only net a spell caster maybe 3 to 5 chances to sell a spell per day. I only allow 14 hours worth of Gather Info checks per day.

I figure if he really tries, he will probably make 75 gold a day, or about 1050 gold by the time the players rejoin him in 2 weeks. That's enough to be worth it, but not so much that anyone will say, "We stop adventuring and just sell spells for a year."

There are a bunch of other modifiers that a player can opt for, but I don't want to bore you with details. Thanks so much everyone.

 

[krupintupple]

i'd wager that just because you have four 'aid' memorised, doesn't really mean everyone is going to use or want them. i highly doubt that other NPCs would rush to his door on the news that a semi-retired PC has taken up residence in town and is selling stuff like cure light wounds and detect evil. keep in mind that most NPCs would be of a religious faith and could get spells cheaper from their own order, or typically venture around with a cleric in their group. he may be useful for curio, but he's definitely not going to make the 8000gp he thinks he is.

perhaps a modern-day allegory, but think of how successful you'd be right now if you struck out on your own as a talented mage (web programmer): most large companies have their own in-house people (local churches and government), and the smaller, free-lance programming groups usually have their own guys they rely on (adventuring NPCs with partied clerics). sure, you could make money, but it'd be silly to say:

"Well, since I'm a mage (web programmer) and the Waterdhavian Mage's League (Microsoft) deals in spells and is wealthy, they're clearly going to pay me $8000 (8000gp) for two weeks of work!"

 

[ScionJustice]

Things in the game should make sense. It doesn't make any sense that he wouldn't be able to sell spells. Think how much it cost us in reality to pay a lawyer to do anything, it would and should be very profitable to be able to do real magic. If you have a problem with the concept, you probably should be playing another game. In short, things should make sense as much as they can possibly in the fantasy game.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Things in the game should make sense.

Agreed.

It doesn't make any sense that he wouldn't be able to sell spells.

Agreed.

Think how much it cost us in reality to pay a lawyer to do anything, it would and should be very profitable to be able to do real magic.

As a lawyer, I think you vastly overestimate how profitable my profession is.

If you have a problem with the concept, you probably should be playing another game.

Let's not go there. I've heard people say that if you want realism, you should play something besides D&D. And now here you are, saying that if you don't want realism, you should play something besides D&D. Let's just agree that we all want to play D&D. Okay?

In short, things should make sense as much as they can possibly in the fantasy game.

Agreed. And that's why selling spells shouldn't be very profitable. In a world where an "extravagant" lifestyle costs about 200 gp/month, a guy making 75 gp/day to do something that dozens (if not hundreds) of other people can do at least as well and probably better, doesn't make much sense.

To use your lawyer/magician analogy, the number of lawyers who earn an "extravagant" amount of money is relatively small; the number who earn ten times that amount can probably be counted on one hand.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yes, I'm trying to be realistic. Realisticly, while magic is worth a lot of money, there are als ogoing to be very few people in any one area who: 1) need the magic, if it's a convenience as opposed to manual labor find it worthwhile to frivolously spend on; 2) have the money to afford this magic (most NPCs are making 10-20 gp a week AT BEST, more likely 20 sp); 3) Are aare the PC is available to sell them services; 4) Don't already have another place they go for the spellcasting or if a first-time spell services purchaser happen upon the PC first.

It's a niche business. When you make a "sale" it's big money (but in terms relative to a regular wage, not what the PCs expect to earn adventuring), but you can't just go into a new market and unload all your "cargo" like that. Selling a single low level spell service for 50 gp? Oh My GAWD! That's more than some most people make in a year!!!!! Probably not that exciting to the advering wizard but hey...maybe that's why they go put themselves in danger ADVENTURING. A typical skilled laborer, master of his craft, best in town at what he does...makes 1/2 his check result in gp a week. I'm all for spellcasters being able to earn more because magic is an expensive and precious commodity or whatever. But the crazy amounts of money should be crazy compared to what a non-caster could make. Somewhere in the DMG it even says (iirc) adventurers tend to have incredibly uncommon levels of wealth, on par with aristocrats, but spend the money on gear instead of...estate and such.

Tell me how my reasoning is unrealistic. If anything, I'm putting too many real-world assumptions into a game world.

@the OP
Wow. I know I'm writing mini thesis's talking about this, but I can't believe you put in all that effort ot make a system. If it were me, I'd just ad hoc it and say, "Eh, you can sell about ~200 gp in spells this week." I don't need another major subsystem in my life.

 

[irdeggman]

Didn't you just revently ask a similar question about a player in your group trying to make insane amounts of money via selling magic items and threatening to use teloprt to get around "saturating the market"?

I smell a trend in that your players are seeking to make more money for some strange reason. Logic would say it is becasue of something particular about your game that causes them to seek to make more money, perhaps buying magic items is more accessible than it should be.

Also a cohort cannot make money for his "leader". He would make his oen money, but it should not be a way to have the PC gain extra actions or income - in fact a cohort is usually "paid", unlike followers.

 

[frankthedm]

Please explain your thoughts.

Those equipment cost tables are there too give a rough estimate of what it costs a player to get the spell cast by an NPC, not to mean characters can sell their spell stacks on a daily basis. also selling spells is not something to be done in handwaved downtime. There are enough variables where any attempts go front and center using game time unless the profits are also handwaved [i.e. character lives comfortably, but GP profits funneled back into the church to expand deity's influence]

Also what God is this cleric of?

 

[Dross]

What type of town is it, including government? What size is the town? How many churches are in the town? Are there laws about opening up a fly by night magic shop? What are the taxes that he would have to pay, cost for opening a shop, cost of advertising? Why would a citizen choose his services over the tried and tested services of a trusted church? A percentage (10%-25%) of the money earned should be donated to his church.

I'm sure the other major churches would be very concerned that some unaffiliated cleric is taking away some of there business.

If not the church, then some guild (even a thieves guild) could be very interested in the cleric. Guild fees? If you go the way of allowing things, don't forget start up costs, even if it is only advertising.

And depending on the type of deity the cleric worships, maybe Q's should be asked as to why he is not casting the spells for free?

 

[EroGaki]

As an aside, I have a question for y'all: why is it okay that PC's only get half price when they sell anything? I mean, besides the fact that the rules say it is so? I believe aboyd mentioned that the PC in question will sell his spells for half price like any other equipment; are the PC's spells of lower quality somehow? This question as boggled my mind for a while.

 

[Celebrim]

So, a couple of thoughts:

1) All D&D rules governing economics have always sucked in every edition.
2) The cost of spells is there to screw the PC's. Kudo's to the PC for turning ill thought out rules for screw the PC back on the system.
3) Spellcasters shouldn't make insanely more than other professions for their services, else, everyone would want to be spellcasters.
4) Change the rules to something that makes sense for your campaign's economic assumptions. If you've been following RAW up to now, something like if you sell spells you can make on average, per day, 1 gp per spell caster level.
5) Your PC is only attempting this because he believes you won't try to RP it out. Do so. Day 1: 'Would you like a fireball?' Of course not. Day 2: PC is now stocked up with large numbers of fast selling non-adventuring spells. Day 3: Something terrible and dangerous happens, while the PC has nothing but large numbers of useless utility spells memorized. Hilarity ensues. Day 4: PC realizes that there is an unforeseen cost to casting ones spells for profit - you don't have them when you need them.
6) Make this a RP oppurtunity. Things that are almost certain to happen to a PC that starts marketing his spells publically: a) The tax man is going to come around asking if he's been paying his taxes. And what about all those untaxed gains from adventuring? Does the PC have a licence to act as a mercenary? Does he have a licence to salvage treasure? If not, does he have documentation proving the the treasure isn't stolen goods? Probably, there is a large fine involved. b) The local clergy, for whom selling spells is a living and not a side business, are going to be more than a little upset. Some will probably not be above spreading nasty rumors about the PC's. c) The PC's are likely to find that promoting religions not recognized by the state is illegal. I hope your PC worships a really commonly recognized diety with an organized religion, and if he does, the local branch is probably going to ask him whether he's up on his tithes.
7) If the player tries to rules lawyer you, point out two things: The upshot of this is the player will be able to buy spells at the new lower market rate (whatever you decide that is), and then appeal to his reason: 1 g.p. = ~$50 if using normal economic assumptions. He's suggesting he pull in $400,000 for two weeks work. Why isn't everything owned by the clerics and wizards?