Sense Motive: PC vs PC

[mrtauntaun]

Greetings fellow enworlders. Its been awhile since I've played d20. I am fairly certain I read somewhere that you can't use sense motive on another player, specifically to detect lies or a bluff. Or at least, the skill wasn't intended to be used that way.

Can anyone clarify that for me? And if it's in the rules, where's it stated? Thanks!

 

[irdeggman]

I haven;t heard that one before.

You can't use diplomacy on a PC to change their attitude. (PHB pg 71).

I would allow Sense Motive and Bluff to be used between PCs - but I would only tell them what they "feel", I leave how they use the information to the players.

"He seems trustworthy", "you don't think he's lying", etc.

 

[UltimaGabe]

In 3e, there was the rule that you couldn't bluff players. Therefore, if one of the PCs had read the adventure and knew the NPC was lying, there was absolutely nothing the DM could do.

Stupidest rule of 3e, IMO.

 

[irdeggman]

In 3e, there was the rule that you couldn't bluff players. Therefore, if one of the PCs had read the adventure and knew the NPC was lying, there was absolutely nothing the DM could do.

Stupidest rule of 3e, IMO.

I don't think that was the rule.

I think it was this one:

"NPCs can never use a Charisma check to influence PC attitudes. The players always decide their characters' attitudes."

3.0 DMG pg 149)

Which is pretty much the same rule in 3.5. It about "attitude" and "reaction" not about bluffing and sense motive.

 

[UltimaGabe]

I don't think that was the rule.

I think it was this one:

"NPCs can never use a Charisma check to influence PC attitudes. The players always decide their characters' attitudes."

3.0 DMG pg 149)

Which is pretty much the same rule in 3.5. It about "attitude" and "reaction" not about bluffing and sense motive.

Are you sure? I could have sworn there was some sort of a "You cannot bluff PCs." statement or something... Now I need to go fish out my 3e PHB...

 

[irdeggman]

Are you sure? I could have sworn there was some sort of a "You cannot bluff PCs." statement or something... Now I need to go fish out my 3e PHB...

You can "faint" them. I didn't find anything stating you couldn't "bluff" or "mislead" PCs at all - only the "changing attitudes" part, which makes sense in that except for mind controlling spells and thbe like players should determine how their PCs act.

 

[KarinsDad]

You can "faint" them. I didn't find anything stating you couldn't "bluff" or "mislead" PCs at all - only the "changing attitudes" part, which makes sense in that except for mind controlling spells and thbe like players should determine how their PCs act.

Which should be true for the DM and NPCs as well. The DM should decide his NPC attitudes based on roleplaying, not dice rolling. Dice rolling should only be used in an "on the fence" case.

The mystical Diplomacy skill that only works on NPCs and not PCs is really bizzare.

However, note that Intimidate does not have this "cannot be done on PCs" language, but I suspect the DMG overrules that it can.

 

[blargney the second]

As a player I use Bluff and Sense Motive on fellow players all the time. It's mostly harmless and a lot of fun.

 

[Mort]

Which should be true for the DM and NPCs as well. The DM should decide his NPC attitudes based on roleplaying, not dice rolling. Dice rolling should only be used in an "on the fence" case.

If you subscribe to this method, how do you handle the 6 cha half-orc whos player is a smooth talking diplomat and plays the half-orc as such? Yes it's "bad role-playing," but too many DM's let players get away with it and the dice should certainly constrain the player from adopting this approach.

I prefer to have the player roll first and then if they want, role play the result (with possible modifiers if they role play well). This lets the role players role play and the others simply take the die roll.

 

[Mark Chance]

Sense Motive can and should be used PC to PC when the situation dictates. For example, in a recent adventure I ran, the party was separated by a illusory wall. Some of the party saw through the illusion, others didn't, including one fellow who failed his Will save even after others pointed out the illusion. On the other side of the wall, unseen by the rest of the party at the time, the party's scout fell under the mental domination of an aboleth. Every player at the table knew this had happened, but all but one of the characters had no idea.

When the dominated character hollered out that all was clear, Bluff vs. Sense Motive checks were made. Most of the party failed and walked right into an ambush.

Great fun was had by all.