D&D 5E Setting Party level vs an Ancient Red Dragon

[Stalker0]

I know my 8 L10-11 PC walked all over Demogorgon like he was northing but he couldn't fly. I would think a dragon would probably do a lot of fly overs while using his breath weapon.

Someone did a good analysis in another thread. And what they showed is that assuming the party has good ranged attacks, the fly kiting doesn't work that well. Ranged Weapons have really good range, so its easy for the party to get a round or 2 of shots while the dragon flies around waiting to get its breath back. And with 10 pcs...that's a lot of attacks.

Now I do think the grapple, pick up, and drop strategy has a lot of merit. Effectively your move is generating damage in that case, so moving around has more benefit.

Hehe, I really want to see this fight happen now!

 

[Oofta]

Someone did a good analysis in another thread. And what they showed is that assuming the party has good ranged attacks, the fly kiting doesn't work that well. Ranged Weapons have really good range, so its easy for the party to get a round or 2 of shots while the dragon flies around waiting to get its breath back. And with 10 pcs...that's a lot of attacks.

Now I do think the grapple, pick up, and drop strategy has a lot of merit. Effectively your move is generating damage in that case, so moving around has more benefit.

Hehe, I really want to see this fight happen now!

If they can see the dragon, they are probably frightened and firing with disadvantage. But why does everyone assume every fight takes place on a flat plain on a sunny day? Do it at night, and the dragon can just fly up out of darkvision range. In any terrain at all other than flat bare ground, it just flies behind the ridge-line or behind a building.

Most spells that could normally restrain aren't going to work against a gargantuan creature. If everyone is 10th level and gathered around the paladin, just grab him (using bite attack of course to take advantage of your 15 foot reach, none of these pesky sentinel/pole arm masters) and fly way. Even if you do want to play with your food, you can do it one on one, no need to involve his friends.

Then there's this whole concept of "honor". Bah. What chaotic evil dragon gets to be centuries old by relying on "honor"? Or that for some reason, the dragon would just fly in and roll around the party like they're catnip (dragonnip?). Red dragons may have a temper, but they're still genius level IQ by human standards.

 

[Stalker0]

If they can see the dragon, they are probably frightened and firing with disadvantage. But why does everyone assume every fight takes place on a flat plain on a sunny day? Do it at night, and the dragon can just fly up out of darkvision range. In any terrain at all other than flat bare ground, it just flies behind the ridge-line or behind a building.

Most spells that could normally restrain aren't going to work against a gargantuan creature. If everyone is 10th level and gathered around the paladin, just grab him (using bite attack of course to take advantage of your 15 foot reach, none of these pesky sentinel/pole arm masters) and fly way. Even if you do want to play with your food, you can do it one on one, no need to involve his friends.

Then there's this whole concept of "honor". Bah. What chaotic evil dragon gets to be centuries old by relying on "honor"? Or that for some reason, the dragon would just fly in and roll around the party like they're catnip (dragonnip?). Red dragons may have a temper, but they're still genius level IQ by human standards.

Since this party will have prep time, they have a few options to negate fear.

Also it sounds like the party is going after the dragon, so they can choose the time most likely.

Probably the best lAir for this dragon is a smallish room with an open ceiling to the sky. Forces the party to get close for breath weapon, but the dragon still has fly away escape options l

 

[Oofta]

Since this party will have prep time, they have a few options to negate fear.

Like what? Not being sarcastic here, I honestly can't think of anything.

Also it sounds like the party is going after the dragon, so they can choose the time most likely.

True for this particular encounter.

Probably the best lAir for this dragon is a smallish room with an open ceiling to the sky. Forces the party to get close for breath weapon, but the dragon still has fly away escape options l

If the dragon has been there a while I'm assuming he's prepared for invaders. I would assume a fair number of trap-like areas he can ambush them in, or "hidey holes" he can hide in/crawl through. Just because he's primarily an aerial combatant doesn't mean he can't take advantage of his climbing abilities and stealth.

 

[Quickleaf]

All I can say is that a 9th level party wouldn't stand a chance against an ancient red dragon in my campaign, at least not with the groups I've played with.

[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] mentioned some spells like fire shield, greater invis., otiluke's resilient sphere, phantasmal killer, watery sphere

Fire Shield - yes this will give 1 person DR, but it's self only. It's still 45 points fire damage unless they make the DC 24 dex save.

Invisibility - you are not automatically undetected, you still need to make stealth checks. Good luck against a creature with +16 perception.

Otilukes/Bigby's Hand/Force Cage/etc - will have no effect against a gargantuan creature.

Phantasmal Killer - they have a +9 wisdom save, but even if they fail it they could just ignore it until it goes away or use legendary resistance.

Melee types won't ever get close unless they can fly, and even then the dragon would just use his wing buffet and fly away. This is also assuming of course they have a way to negate fear with a wisdom save DC 21.

Maybe I'm just missing something, but most parties I would expect a TPK in 2-4 rounds. Then again I have been known to use rules for ballista damage where the dragon is dropping things like small houses on the party so maybe I just don't play fair.

Your spell knowledge of the edition is better than mine - I have multiple editions rattling around my head and tend to mix stuff up.

I was trying to find an "utter low level limit" of what could reasonably be excepted to have a prayer at defeating an ancient red dragon. The reason for me wanting to do that was two-fold: 1) The OP has lots of new players, and the lower their level, the less they have to track, the easier the game, the faster their turns, the less analysis paralysis. 2) I've consistently seen PCs in groups of six or seven hit well outside their weight class when it comes to CR.

I agree that a *lot* depends on how the DM plays the monsters. The OP mentioned encountering the red dragon in its cavernous volcanic lair – which I assumed meant he wouldn't be having it fly around much, would be using the damaging lair action sparingly, and generally not playing the monster as intelligently as he would for skilled players in a campaign (since the OP is running a one-shot with several newbies).

While I was using the DMG to reach my suggestion of "about 6th level", I was actually looking more deeply at numbers and making some assumptions that I should be clear about:

• Any sane party going up against a red dragon – and knowing it in advance – is going to prepare with fire resistance at a minimum. So I'm assuming most or all of the party have that through spells, race/class, magic items, or potions. So that reduces its breath weapon from 91 fire damage to 45 damage. And happens to be just behind the hit points for a 6th-level fighter with average hp and 14 CON (10+2+(6*5)+(2*5)=52). The idea being that the DM doesn't want the dragon to wipe out a front-line PC at full health with the breath weapon.
• Similarly, I assumed the DM wouldn't focus fire on a single PC until that PC is downed & then coup de grace that PCs. While that's sound strategy, I *think* the feel he's going for is an epic battle with most of the PCs imperiled, but still not pulling out ALL the stops – because there are many beginners. So it's splitting its bite (35)/claw (17)/claw(17) attacks among multiple targets. Again, this is so it doesn't take out a front-line PC in one round. "Gentlemen's rules" to give newbie's a sporting chance in the one-shot.
• I assumed in such a large party (10 PCs) that there will be a dedicated healer with spare the dying & revivify, so PCs will be down-and-then-up alot.
• I assumed the party would accomplish some kind of alpha-striking trick to surprise the dragon and that at least one PC (likely played by a player familiar with 5e who optimized their PC for this one-shot) would open by delivering a strong blow, possibly imposing a condition as well.
• I assumed most PCs would benefit from bless or advantage or other modifiers to boost their attack rolls, and thus assumed the 10 PCs would be able to dish out somewhere around 140 damage on the first round (plus a likely alpha strike), albeit diminishing in the 2nd and subsequent rounds as the dragon kills them off.
• Lastly, I assume the PCs have ample time to prepare before entering the cave, so they can cast mage armor, mirror image, warding bond and so forth. Not sure if the paladin has anti-fear spells, but I'd also expect the cleric/healer to have calm emotions as an option to counter
  the dragon's Frightening Presence.

 

[Oofta]

Your spell knowledge of the edition is better than mine - I have multiple editions rattling around my head and tend to mix stuff up.

I was trying to find an "utter low level limit" of what could reasonably be excepted to have a prayer at defeating an ancient red dragon. The reason for me wanting to do that was two-fold: 1) The OP has lots of new players, and the lower their level, the less they have to track, the easier the game, the faster their turns, the less analysis paralysis. 2) I've consistently seen PCs in groups of six or seven hit well outside their weight class when it comes to CR.

I agree that a *lot* depends on how the DM plays the monsters. The OP mentioned encountering the red dragon in its cavernous volcanic lair – which I assumed meant he wouldn't be having it fly around much, would be using the damaging lair action sparingly, and generally not playing the monster as intelligently as he would for skilled players in a campaign (since the OP is running a one-shot with several newbies).

While I was using the DMG to reach my suggestion of "about 6th level", I was actually looking more deeply at numbers and making some assumptions that I should be clear about:

• Any sane party going up against a red dragon – and knowing it in advance – is going to prepare with fire resistance at a minimum. So I'm assuming most or all of the party have that through spells, race/class, magic items, or potions. So that reduces its breath weapon from 91 fire damage to 45 damage. And happens to be just behind the hit points for a 6th-level fighter with average hp and 14 CON (10+2+(6*5)+(2*5)=52). The idea being that the DM doesn't want the dragon to wipe out a front-line PC at full health with the breath weapon.
• Similarly, I assumed the DM wouldn't focus fire on a single PC until that PC is downed & then coup de grace that PCs. While that's sound strategy, I *think* the feel he's going for is an epic battle with most of the PCs imperiled, but still not pulling out ALL the stops – because there are many beginners. So it's splitting its bite (35)/claw (17)/claw(17) attacks among multiple targets. Again, this is so it doesn't take out a front-line PC in one round. "Gentlemen's rules" to give newbie's a sporting chance in the one-shot.
• I assumed in such a large party (10 PCs) that there will be a dedicated healer with spare the dying & revivify, so PCs will be down-and-then-up alot.
• I assumed the party would accomplish some kind of alpha-striking trick to surprise the dragon and that at least one PC (likely played by a player familiar with 5e who optimized their PC for this one-shot) would open by delivering a strong blow, possibly imposing a condition as well.
• I assumed most PCs would benefit from bless or advantage or other modifiers to boost their attack rolls, and thus assumed the 10 PCs would be able to dish out somewhere around 140 damage on the first round (plus a likely alpha strike), albeit diminishing in the 2nd and subsequent rounds as the dragon kills them off.
• Lastly, I assume the PCs have ample time to prepare before entering the cave, so they can cast mage armor, mirror image, warding bond and so forth. Not sure if the paladin has anti-fear spells, but I'd also expect the cleric/healer to have calm emotions as an option to counter
  the dragon's Frightening Presence.

Well I did just run a fight with an ancient red dragon, so I had to look up a few things. I had the advantage of the group not knowing exactly what they were going to face or when, and the group is not particularly into optimizing.

In our fight, I was quite surprised the cleric didn't use Calm Emotions (he may not have had it prepared and I kept him pretty busy healing), but it's a concentration spell. Even with resistance, there's no guarantee someone's going to make a DC 22 con save to maintain concentration. Add to that, that the group needs to stick together in easily-breathed on space.

As far as a bunch of the other stuff ... it depends on the DM, tactics and how mean you want to be. I'm a mean DM so I'd probably have earthquakes opening up pre-prepared chasms, magma eruptions not only annoying the characters (probably targeting the casters again) but also possibly igniting barrels of oil tied to the ceiling and so forth. As far as getting a surprise round, with a passive perception of 26 I don't see it happening. Either the dragon will hear them coming or the PCs will make a ruckus fighting the minions.

That and the dragon has had years to prepare for this; any dragon that has gotten to the point of being ancient is going to be paranoid IMHO.

But it depends on how the session is run and what the DM allows. Heck, he could have the dragon in a 50X50 chamber on top of his pile'o'loot snoozing away. I'd just expect a swingy fight. In my game the dragon recharged his breath weapon on each of the first two rounds after the first and I was able to catch the entire group in the blast (90 foot cones are huge). They still managed, but it was touch and go.

With a different group and slightly different rolls, the results may have been dramatically different.

 

[Reynard]

I am not sure how I gave the impression the players were new to D&D or 5e. That's not the case at all. Some are more dedicated optimizers than others.

To be clear: this is a culmination of an existing campaign and a bridge to the next stage of that campaign. Therefore it's important to me that it is both very dangerous and fair.

As to prep: the lair is a ruined city so they can certainly prep and buff but it isn't like there is a single cavern in which the dragon is trapped. It is a very large, complex and dangerous battlefield.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using EN World mobile app

 

[Reynard]

For reference -- the Party

Half Orc Totem Warrior (wolf) Barbarian
Human Battle Master Fighter
Gnome Circle of the Land Druid
Human Cleric of Life
Dragonborn Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer
Human Oath of Devotion Paladin (dip in Warlock)
Human Divination Wizard
Human ranger(hunter)/Monk(Kensai)
Human Champion Fighter*
Human Artificer Gunsmith*

*These two are on the fence due to other commitments, but I have another player waiting for an open seat so I am looking at 8 to 10, not necessarily a solid 10.

 

[Eltab]

You guys are working towards my Fighting Plan for Dragons.
Get airborne as soon as you can, let your minions locate / pin down the intruders, swoop in for Frightful Presence above the middle of the group (use your initial Breath Weapon during the approach), and use Reach attacks as much as possible.

Other thoughts:
Be a 3-D-mobile cannon. Do not try to hover, keep moving.
STAY ALOFT.

Note that Frightened opponents can be sent scattering on subsequent turns if you maneuver your scary self carefully. Only worry about this if you feel like showing off.

When your Breath Weapon recharges, figure out how to blast several enemies at once with it.

If your Breath Weapon is not available, pick somebody and keep pounding on him/her until they drop.
Spellcaster-artillery are (usually) also squishy and therefore primary targets. Archers come in second (unless they have a supply of Arrows of Dragon-Slaying, then they come first; personal experience).

Save the raging Barbarian for last; he's only as dangerous as the length of his blade.

 

[CTurbo]

For reference -- the Party

Half Orc Totem Warrior (wolf) Barbarian
Human Battle Master Fighter
Gnome Circle of the Land Druid
Human Cleric of Life
Dragonborn Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer
Human Oath of Devotion Paladin (dip in Warlock)
Human Divination Wizard
Human ranger(hunter)/Monk(Kensai)
Human Champion Fighter*
Human Artificer Gunsmith*

*These two are on the fence due to other commitments, but I have another player waiting for an open seat so I am looking at 8 to 10, not necessarily a solid 10.

That's a lot of humans! haha

That's a pretty good party though. That party should be able to dish out some DPR