Setting the DC for social situations

[kamosa]

One of the topics that has been the most discussed around our gaming group campfire is the use of social skills in the game. One of the ideas that has come up is that there is great discrepancies about how the DC's are set across all campaigns. So, it is hard to know how usefull a social character is going to be going into a new group, because you don't know the GM.

This means that new players are much more likely to play fighter types as for the most part the combat system is pretty much the same across most games.

So, I was curious if the GM's on the board would elaborate on how they decide and set DC's for social situations. In specific how do you set the DC for Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate? How do you modify this number based on the role playing done by the player? Does the DC go up in situations where you don't want the players to find out the information or solve the situation without a fight?

 

[Dark Mistress]

In specific how do you set the DC for Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate?
Well I set the DC based on what the NPC's aggenda is, diffrences in social station(chracters that look like uncoth ruffins will not recive a warm welcome from most nobles), any diffrences for race(some races or people are prejudice against others), the situtation it accurse in(in a back alley at night from a large scary fighter will get a bonus for intimidate) there is a lot of viarbles mostly you just have to trust your GM

How do you modify this number based on the role playing done by the player?
My oppinion is this if the player atleast tries to play it out in character instead of just saying (my character ask him blah blah blah) I give a bonus for trying and depending on how well I think the player played it/made his case I give bonuses to their role.

Does the DC go up in situations where you don't want the players to find out the information or solve the situation without a fight?
Nope not in my case, but then I tend to run more social, mystery, politcal style games than your standared DnD games. Beyond when they go on dungeon crawls there is virtually always a way to solve a situation with out fighting and i tend to award bonus xp if they accomplish it.(since that is harder than just bashing everything) for example it is far better in my oppinion if the PC's uncover a assassination plot in a city, and with prove accuse those involded. They get arrested and dealt with, the PC's are hero's, and it can easly create more RP situtations.

 

[Nellisir]

So, I was curious if the GM's on the board would elaborate on how they decide and set DC's for social situations. In specific how do you set the DC for Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate? How do you modify this number based on the role playing done by the player?

There's not much you can do about differing DMs and differing styles of play. That said, I'd decide DC's as follows:
A really simple, basic, easy thing is DC 5.
A fairly straightforward puzzle or problem is DC 10.
A difficult problem (or person!) is DC 15
A nearly impossible problem (for the average person) is DC 20

Add the NPC's level and appropriate ability score modifier (usually charisma), and you've got your target DC.

Example: the PCs want to get Joe Doorholder to open the door. Joe is feeling underappreciated today, and he's a butthead anyways, so rather than just doing it, he'll argue with the PCs. It's his job to open the door, so arguing him into doing it isn't very hard (DC 5), but he's been doing it for a few years and has some experience at thinking up reasons to not let people in (3 levels of door holder = DC 8). Fortunately for the PCs, he's not very good at arguing (Chr 8, -1 penalty). They need to beat a DC 7 in an Intimidate, Diplomacy, or Bluff check to get in.

Does the DC go up in situations where you don't want the players to find out the information or solve the situation without a fight?

If the DM doesn't want the PCs to have the information, then it shouldn't be possible to get it. And if it is possible to get it, then they should have a fair and reasonable (which is NOT the same as easy) chance of getting it. If they capture the Grand Knight of Cookies, and torture him (not in the DM's plans!) to get the secret Oreo recipe, then there should be a chance he gives it up. Now, the Grand Knight is 15th level with a fearsome attitude, and it's a secret he REALLY doesn't want to surrender, so the opposed DC to Intimidate him ought to be around 35-40, but that's reasonable under the circumstances (almost impossible DC20 + level 15 +Chr bonus +5 = DC 40). I'd give one character one shot a day, with a +2 bonus to the PC's roll for the torture, and see how long it takes before the paladin finds out what's going on.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[drunkmoogle]

I use the standard DC's, plus or minus for circumstance bonus/penalties. The only skill I have trouble with is the Diplomacy skill, but that was resolved by increasing circumstance penalties by +/- 5 rather than +/- 2. For example, an Arch Nemisis BBEG (-10 circ. off the bat ) has the same goals as the PCs (+5 circ.). Furthermore, by forming a truce with the PCs, he can eliminate his superiors to further his own motives (+5 circ). However, the PC's just slain his mooks and his wife (-5 circ., -10 circ.). So, in this case, the Diplomacy DCs are set at +15 over normal.

As for DCs going up when I don't want them to know something; yes I do. Certain things can hurt the game if they are revealed through just rollplaying, as opposed to roleplaying. I do divulge small hints on sucessful checks, though.

You're right about this topic, though. It's all in the hands of the GM. You should pick a more RP oriented character after you learn about their style and how it meshes with yours.

 

[alsih2o]

DC 20, getting my high school principak to realize that I was just kidding and meant no harm.

Easier <20, harder >20. This may seem overly simplified, but it has doen me a world of good. It is slightly arbitrary, but I have had no complaints on my social skill D.C.'s

 

[I'm A Banana]

You might also consider adding the NPC's ranks in Diplomacy (for instance) to that DC, treated something like an opposed check. This makes the nobility (Aristocrats with Diplomacy as a class skill) a lot better at talking their way out of situations or rude adventurers than your average FarmerJohn (Commoner, with more ranks in Profession (Pumpkin Farmer) than in hoity-toity Dip-loh-mancy.)

 

[McBard]

As a DM I maintain that requiring social skill checks for the social encounters actually *increases* character development. Yes, that's right. How?

In the first place, I don't demand of players with melee-focused warriors to have any knowledge of actual, quasi-medieval hand-to-hand combat in order to have their character attack. We do have a player who has some skill in judo, but I don't give his Monk *character* any special bonuses for the *player's* martial arts knowledge. When he wants to attack a foe he has to roll dice.

Secondly, the above approach holds obviously even more so for magic-users. Unless there's something very remarkable about one of my players that I don't know, none of them knows anything about hurling a twenty-foot spherical glob of fire from their fingertips. So, this lack of knowledge should have nothing to do with how often their half-elf sorcercer character can cast Fireballs.

Finally, as you might be able to tell from my post, in real life I probably have a Charisma that barely registers double-digits--and trust me, the rest of the players in the group would all happily admit to pushing a 12 at best. Needless to say, none of us is Brad Pitt! So when a player wants to design and run an 18 Charisma, sweet-talking Bard I REWARD his character concept by allowing--actually demanding--that he roll for his social interactions.

Sure, we have our share of in-character banter; however, YES, every social encounter is eventually resolved by a die roll. I do not give check bonuses to social skill rolls based upon a player's roleplaying of a converstation any more than I give attack bonuses to melee attacks based upon a player's roleplaying of his fighting maneuvers. But our games are still full of description, banter, excitement, and narrative (what I guess is called "roleplaying").

Now, to answer in practical terms the original poster's questions (and all these answers assume the 3.5 PHB):

1) Intimidate is already nicely quantified for both in-combat and out-of-combat applications (see p. 76)

2) Bluff is not only quantified for in-combat applications, but its out-of-combat situation is fairly straight forward: oppose it with Sense Motive (see pp 67-68)

3) Gather Information is a little more vague, it's true. Try this: a DC 15 check supplies 1 piece of information; a DC 20 gives 2 pieces; a DC 25 gives 3 pieces. Each attempt takes 1d4+1 hours (this IS in the PHB). In my games I have a chart of 10 bits of general campaign hints and rumors, and refer to it for the above-type information searches. My high-CHR, social skill players have thanked me for this system.

4) Diplomacy is also fairly straight forward if DMs would actually apply its rules as already written to games they run. Just use the very quantified chart on page 72. I eventually require (after in-character banter from the players who are so inclined) a Diplomacy/Intimidate check for EVERY exchange with EVERY NPC. It's put my players on edge in social exchanges, and we've not surprisingly seen a decrease in those CHR-dumped, no-Diplomacy-ranked 4-member parties.

 

[Umbran]

In specific how do you set the DC for Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate?

For most cases, I use the standard rules for these. Gather Information is set with an ad hoc DC dependant on how obscure the information is.

Typically, you don't set DCs on Bluff - it is an opposed check against another person's Sense Motive skill. In negotiations, Diplomacy is also an opposed check. When the PCs are simply trying to make an NPC more firendly, I follow the PHB guidelines.

How do you modify this number based on the role playing done by the player?

In D&D melee combat, the PC takes actions that yield bonuses - typically a +1 or +2, sometimes a bit higher. Social skills are similar - if the PC thinks of a particularly effective ploy, they get similarly sized bonuses on the roll.

Does the DC go up in situations where you don't want the players to find out the information or solve the situation without a fight?

No, because I don't predetermine exactly how a situation should unfold. I present the players with challenges. They find their own ways around them. Some ways may be easier than others.

 

[Big Bad Bob]

There are two ways to look at this problem, I think. You have to decide how devoted you are to the character's abilities in the game, and also how much you want the player to solve problems and get a little more involved.

My girlfriend plays a paladin with a 20 charisma. Her diplomacy bonus is unreal. Her character should really be successful in a lot of social situations, but I really like seeing how the player wants to deal with the situation. Ultimately, what I do is kind of factor both what she says in character with her roll. Even is she says something really stupid, she'll still succeed with a high diplomacy check. But she'll do even better if she says all the right things and does really well on the roll.

The roll can be looked at as a modifier to the in-character actions, or vice versa. Sometimes I say, "Since you rolled a 5,000 on your dimplomacy check, what you really said was '__________'"

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

My preferred method is to make the roll before the 'in character' discussion. I use that to set the 'difficulty' of the conversation that I'm going to have. This is where the roleplaying aspect kicks in. If they failed by a mile, nothing much they can do will help. A near fail can be turned around with some decent roleplaying. A near sucess or better can be improved by decent roleplaying - perhaps they get more than they asked for, end up with a contact, etc...

Well, that's the theory. Quite often I forget and we go back to the bad old days of making it all about the players social skills... but I'm trying!