Shade Race from Dragon #307...ECL +2!?!

[kreynolds]

So, they can 1) see ethereal creatures and objects naturally and continually, 2) they can freely touch the incorporeal, and can strike at incorporeal targets without penalty or the normal miss chance, and this applies to all melee weapons a shade makes as well, but not to ranged attacks or spells. Their stat modifiers are +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Wis, and -2 Cha.

This is worth +2 ECL??? This is insane. While the ghost touch thing is pretty cool, its awfully limited. Personally, I peg this at ECL +1. Actually, I peg it at +0.5, rounded up.

What do you folks think?

 

[Arcturus_Rugend]

Technically, the ability bonuses are unbalanced, so that's probably why they tacked on the extra LA.

Like you said, the ghost touch thing is cool and all, but a LA of +2 does seem a bit on the high side. Do they get any other abilities or is that it?

If that is really it, I'd say they're about a +1.5, so on the very low side of an +2 LA.

 

[kreynolds]

Technically, the ability bonuses are unbalanced, so that's probably why they tacked on the extra LA.

Designer preference, I suppose. Personally, I don't think the stat modifiers warrant that much of an increase. Here's how I look at it. A +1 to an ability score adds 0.1 to the creatures ECL. A -1 to an ability score subtracts 0.1 from the creatures ECL. However, I really don't think that Charisma is as valuable (half as much) as the other stats (unless you're talking about undead, when Cha is extremely important for special abilities and such). So, I broke it down like this...

+2 Dex, +0.2
+2 Int, +0.2
-2 Wis, -0.2
-2 Cha, -0.1
--------------------
Total +0.1

Like you said, the ghost touch thing is cool and all, but a LA of +2 does seem a bit on the high side. Do they get any other abilities or is that it?

That's it.

If that is really it, I'd say they're about a +1.5, so on the very low side of an +2 LA.

I didn't even figure them to be a full-fledged +1. I actually had to round up to get to that. It's like the ranger; cool abilities but only in very restricted circumstances.

 

[Dr. NRG]

I think a half-ogre of the same level would kick their ass, just to use another ECL +1 as a measuring stick.

Ghost touch is a +1 ability on a weapon, right?

NRG

 

[kreynolds]

I think a half-ogre of the same level would kick their ass, just to use another ECL +1 as a measuring stick.

LOL

Ghost touch is a +1 ability on a weapon, right?

Yup.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

+2 may be a bit high but with those stats their set up to be the best (non charm)rogues or best wizards. +2 to int without a -2 to a stat that means something to a wizard is almost a+1ecl right there.

I would of placed them at a high +1 or a really low +2.

 

[kreynolds]

+2 may be a bit high but with those stats their set up to be the best (non charm)rogues or best wizards.

True. Their favored class is rogue.

[B+2 to int without a -2 to a stat that means something to a wizard is almost a+1ecl right there. [/B]

But there is a -2 to a stat to offset the +2 to Int. Even if there wasn't though, I don't think that warrants even a +1. Having a +1 Int bonus is nice, but it certainly isn't worth an entire level, not even if you get it for free. Look at it like this; every 4th level you get a free stat increase. It takes two stat increases to get an Int bonus of +1. It takes you 8 levels to get that. 2 divided by 8 is 0.25. So, at the absolute most, a +2 bonus (that stacks with everything) to an ability score would be +0.25, despite what the DMG or Savage Species says.

 

[Arcturus_Rugend]

Here's how I look at it. A +1 to an ability score adds 0.1 to the creatures ECL. A -1 to an ability score subtracts 0.1 from the creatures ECL.

I don't know if that's the best way to do it. If you assign each ability point a +0.3 rather than a +0.1, then you get completely different results, so it seems kind of arbitrary. Also, a +40 to STR would only be a +4 LA.

I'd play an Level 1 ECL 5 Fighter with a 59 STR over a Level 5 Fighter with a 19 STR.

 

[kreynolds]

I don't know if that's the best way to do it. If you assign each ability point a +0.3 rather than a +0.1, then you get completely different results, so it seems kind of arbitrary.

Uh...well, if I assign each ability point a +0.00000000005 rather than a +0.1 or a +0.3, I also get completely different results. Basically, I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Also, a +40 to STR would only be a +4 LA.

No system is flawless. Strictly speaking though, a +1 bonus (that stacks with all other bonuses) to an ability score would be worth +0.125. That is the portion of a single character level that the ability score increase you get every four levels is worth. Obviously, if you add an ability score increase of +40, you going to have to tweak the numbers a bit.

 

[Arcturus_Rugend]

Uh...well, if I assign each ability point a +0.00000000005 rather than a +0.1 or a +0.3, I also get completely different results. Basically, I have no idea what you're trying to say.

That's actually my point. You CAN'T assign a precise number to the ability points, so any number you give them is kind of arbitrary. Even using that 0.125 number will have different results depending on which abilities are modified and to what extent, so balance is always going to need tweaking.

I definitely think that a +2 LA for the Shade race is high, but I don't think that it should be as low as you're thinking either. Just think of all the fun you can have with Ethereal Filchers!

Sorry about the +40 STR dig, though. That was kinda playing devil's advocate.


(edited for spelling)