Shadow Conjuration and forbidden school

[Evil DM]

Hi folks,

I think about the intention of one of my fellow players.

To make it short:

If a wizards specialises / focuses (CM) in the illusion subschool and his forbidden schools are evocation and conjuration (and a 3rd one, yes).

Would he be allowed to use shadow conjuration or shadow evocation?

I agree that these are illusion spells but what they duplicate belongs to your forbidden school.

Cheers, Evil DM.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Hi folks,

I think about the intention of one of my fellow players.

To make it short:

If a wizards specialises / focuses (CM) in the illusion subschool and his forbidden schools are evocation and conjuration (and a 3rd one, yes).

Would he be allowed to use shadow conjuration or shadow evocation?

I agree that these are illusion spells but what they duplicate belongs to your forbidden school.

Cheers, Evil DM.

Um, they don't belong to the forbidden schools: they are illusion school spells always.

They do replicate what those other schools do.

And yes, it is a great work around since never are they actually conjuration or evocation schools.

School type is listed at top: page 276 as example
It sayas for Shadow Conjurarion:
Illusion (Shadow)

If it was actually a conjuratiom spell it would read:
Conjuration.

But it doesn't.

Compare Sequester, it says Abjuration below name.

 

[Runestar]

And this is why evocation is virtually an auto-pick for illusionists.

 

[Evil DM]

Okay folks,

I agree that there seems to be no reason why a illusion specialist could not cast a shadow evocation / conjuration, even if these schools are forbidden to him....

....by RAW!

But on the other and it smells like using a little loophole.

I see that my following argumentation is more personal interpretation than RAW....

....but if someone specialises in a school to get an extra spell. At the cost of losing one (or more [focused]) schools....

....but does not lose the school entirely.

See: If an specialised enchanter has evocation / conjuration as a forbidden school he won't be able to cast any spell from the list. Yes.

But now if you are an illusionist...
...it seems a little different.

So where is the consistency?

Cheers, Evil DM.

 

[Runestar]

There is none.

Technically speaking, you are not so much casting an evocation spell, but rather, an illusion spell who effects just happen to mimic that of an existing evocation spell. In theory, each school offers a unique feature. But in practice, you find that some schools readily step on the toes of other schools because they contain spells which can replicate effects once thought unique to other schools (for example, conjurers make decent blasters because of the orb spells).

Though things get more ridiculous when you realize that the shadow evocation/conjuration line of spells have advantages over and above that offered by evocation/conjuration spells.

For instance, the former have a casting time of just 1 standard action, regardless of the actual casting time of the original spell. Thus, phantom steed requires 10 minutes to cast, but just a standard action if replicated by shadow conjuration.

Next, they ignore any material component/focus. Yep, forcecage without the need for an expensive diamond. Contingency without requiring a statue as a focus. If you play a shadowcraft mage, you can replicate apocalypse from the sky without having to first procure an artifact. Oh, and the casting time is 1 standard action, instead of 1 whole day...

Then, this is where you retort "Ah hah! They have only a limited effect if the foe makes the will save to disbelieve. So a shadow fireball can never replace an actual fireball". Then I point you to the shadowcraft mage build, which cranks the %effect of the shadow list of spells to past 100%. So what really happens is that the spell has a 100% effect if foes fail their will save, and a 120% effect if they succeed on their save! Yes - you actually want foes to be making their saves...

I wouldn't call it a loophole. More of a design oversight. No one doubts that the shadow line of spells work the way they do. The bigger question is whether they should (eg: should illusionists be able to spontaneously convert silent image to replicate any conjuration: creation/summoning and evocation in the game?).

 

[Evil DM]

Ah thanks very much runestar.

This is more than I could have expected.

 

[Zanticor]

I wouldn´t come down on illusionists for casting the shadow stuff to hard. You could just ban the highten spell - earth feath trick that makes the the shadow caster gnome so over the top. Casting spells a level lower than the one your using and giving it an other save is quite a fair trade for the added versitility. Playing a illusionist is though as it is and picking some nice simple spells that you need at that moment can be a relieve from having to come up with yet another brillant image. No way a normal mid level wizard will learn four shadow evocations to cast four fireballs with two saves. The spells really do not compensate for the loss of a school. It only gets a problem at high level optimalisation chees. Let them take it at first and see if it becomes a problem when 9th level spells start flying. Talk to your players and if they all don´t like it because of flavour reasons then stop it. Or just stop it because your an Evil DM but don´t ban it because you think the player will shadow your creatures to hell.

Zanticor.

 

[Shin Okada]

Note that conjuration spells copied via shadow conjuration cannot ignore SR even if the original spell can ignore SR. So, the said illusionist cannot fully enjoy the goodness of conjuration damage spells such as Orbs and Acid Storm.