Shadow Creature Balanced?

[javcs]

Pretty much in the title. Is the shadow creature template balanced?

It's in Manual of the Planes, and has been updated since then, I don't know the most recent update.

I'm asking this mainly because one of my friends is talking about dropping core abilities from creatures with it, for example, a human with the shadow creature template would loose the bonus feat for being human, so as to 'balance' having the shadow creature template, in addition to the LA/CR increase.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Pretty much in the title. Is the shadow creature template balanced?

It's in Manual of the Planes, and has been updated since then, I don't know the most recent update.

I'm asking this mainly because one of my friends is talking about dropping core abilities from creatures with it, for example, a human with the shadow creature template would loose the bonus feat for being human, so as to 'balance' having the shadow creature template.

It's balanced for paying the LA, but that doesn't mean it's balanced if your friend tries to give it to himself for the cost of a feat (it most certainly is not).

 

[javcs]

I should clarify ... loosing the feat is in addition to the LA.

Going to edit that in.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I see no LA listed...

 

[modred]

Tome of Magic page 160 has the Dark Creature Template, which is says is a newer Simplified Streamlined Version of the Shadow Creature Template in Manual of the Planes and Lords of Madness.

I'd say that it's balanced. All it gets for it's +1 LA is Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision, Resistance to Cold 10, Superior Low-Light, +8 hide, +6 move silently, +10 ft. speed.
And of course the (Extraplanar) subtype... I don't see anything in their other then Cold Resistance that makes them especially powerful.

Based off of that one I'd say that +1 LA isn't even a fair trade, those things aren't that great.

Sorry if none of that helps you (I hope you have access to Tome of Magic somehow and can use it instead if you want)

Unfortunately I don't have Manual of the Planes. I do have Lords of Madness.

Now this is a cool template. I would definately take it. Yes, I think it's balanced enough for my games, but I have a low standard for balance. Although I don't like the looks of the caster levels (why are they static?) and the multiplication of speed seems a little dubious (I'd hate to see someone tweak their character into a 150 or more speed), but otherwise, and assuming that they wouldn't over tweak these abilities, it looks fine to me.

But I'm pretty much biased towards considering anything that isn't a giant hulking monster as being a balanced character race. I just like them more.

Shadow Creature has an LA of +2 in Lords of Madness

 

[Drowbane]

Shadow Creature (Lords of Madness) LA +2

Pretty much in the title. Is the shadow creature template balanced?

It's in Manual of the Planes, and has been updated since then, I don't know the most recent update.

I'm asking this mainly because one of my friends is talking about dropping core abilities from creatures with it, for example, a human with the shadow creature template would loose the bonus feat for being human, so as to 'balance' having the shadow creature template, in addition to the LA/CR increase.

Shadowblend (Su): in any condition other than full daylight, a shadow creature can disappear into the shadows, giving it total concealment. Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability, but a daylight spell will.

Total Concealment unless within daylight. Thats better than greater invisibility.... and its (almost) always on.

2 out of 3 Powergamers in our lvl 12 gestalt are using it. My group has been debating whether or not to nerf it some by making just a slightly better version of Dark Creature's Hide in Plain Sight. This version of shadowblend would just let the creature Hide in Plain Sight without the normal move action required to hide (can always take 10?).

edit: No, losing your human feat doesn't make it LA +2 Pixies get a weaker ability (greater invis) and they're ECL 4 or 6 (depending on Otto's).

 

[Rystil Arden]

Total Concealment unless within daylight. Thats better than greater invisibility.... and its (almost) always on.

2 out of 3 Powergamers in our lvl 12 gestalt are using it. My group has been debating whether or not to nerf it some by making just a slightly better version of Dark Creature's Hide in Plain Sight. This version of shadowblend would just let the creature Hide in Plain Sight without the normal move action required to hide (can always take 10?).

edit: No, losing your human feat doesn't make it LA +2 Pixies get a weaker ability (greater invis) and they're ECL 4 or 6 (depending on Otto's).

If you let the gestalt characters put the LA onto only one side of the gestalt, then that's actually the problem.

As to Pixies, they get a whole lot more than Greater Invis (in any kind of light) for their ECL 4.

 

[Drowbane]

As to Pixies, they get a whole lot more than Greater Invis (in any kind of light) for their ECL 4.

Pixies and Shadow Creatures both get more than I bothered to list... nothing of note, however.

Consider for a moment, what spells and effects negate the two conditions.

Invisibility (and Greater): invisibility purge, see invisibiltiy, see the unseen (warlock invocation), touch sight (3rd lvl psionic power), true sight... and perhaps a few more.

Shadowblend: daylight and touchsight.

Thus, it is my opinion that shadowblend is more powerful. And overpowered for LA +2 (even if you ignore the other minor abilities of Shadow Creature).

Again, Pixie gets greater invis (a weaker power) and a handle of minor abilities for 4-6 LA.

If you let the gestalt characters put the LA onto only one side of the gestalt, then that's actually the problem.

That is actually completely irrelevant to Shadow Creature being OP... and is another thread entirely.

 

[Jack Simth]

I see no LA listed...

It's in the 3.5 update booklet on the WotC website.

Unless you're doing LA buyoff or something, definately not worthwhile for a primary caster (no LA is, really); for just about everyone else, near-constant Concealment is nice. If class levels count towards the number of ability selections, it gets very handy (Why yes, I will take Fast Healing 2, a +2 bonus to all saves, and that Plane Shift option looks like a nice escape plan....).

Shadowblend vs. Invisibility:
They still know where you are with Shadowblend, just not exactly. Area effect spells will still have their normal effect on you. If you're Invisible, they first have to locate you. A trade off.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Pixies and Shadow Creatures both get more than I bothered to list... nothing of note, however.

Consider for a moment, what spells and effects negate the two conditions.

Invisibility (and Greater): invisibility purge, see invisibiltiy, see the unseen (warlock invocation), touch sight (3rd lvl psionic power), true sight... and perhaps a few more.

Shadowblend: daylight and touchsight.

Thus, it is my opinion that shadowblend is more powerful. And overpowered for LA +2 (even if you ignore the other minor abilities of Shadow Creature).

Again, Pixie gets greater invis (a weaker power) and a handle of minor abilities for 4-6 LA.



That is actually completely irrelevant to Shadow Creature being OP... and is another thread entirely.

Daylight, Touchsight, and....just being out during the day without any magic

Also, if Invisibility Purged, the Pixie can reestablish as a free action, no biggie.

Pixies can fly naturally. That's huge and worth at least another 1 LA. Being size Tiny is beneficial enough that it usually costs another LA. The other stat bonuses on the pixie are better than Shadow Creature. The 1/day Permanent Image, Dispel Magic, Entangle, and Lesser Confusion are pretty cool too