Shadow Stride vs. Fleeting Ghost vs. Secret Stride

[Smeelbo]

My two favorite classes to play are Ranger and Rogue, so I've been giving a lot of thought to Stealth and multi-classing lately. Upon careful reading of the Rogue powers, it appears to me that Shadow Stride makes Fleeting Ghost pretty much useless.

At-Will, Martial, Move Action, Personal
Prerequisite: Must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: You can move your speed and make a Stealth check. You do not take the normal penalty from movement on this check.

This is generally interpreted as giving you an At-Will Move Action that is an exception to Keeping Still, although a minority intepret it as allowing you to Become Hidden with ordinary Cover or Concealment. Let's assume the majority interpretation for now.

At-Will, Martial, Move Action, Personal
Prerequisite: Must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: You must be hidden to use this power. You can move your speed and must end your movement in a space where you can remain hidden. Then make a Stealth check with no penalty for moving. If the check succeeds, you remain hidden during the movement, even if you have no cover or concealment during it.

This allows the character to "Panzerbush," that is, dart from cover to cover while remaining hidden, even if the terrain in between is clear. However, if I understand correctly, this ability obseletes Fleeting Ghost. Upon obtaining Shadow Stride, one would immediately retrain Fleeting Ghost.

At first glance, they appear to pertain to two different situations. However, the requirement that "you must be hiding to use [Shadow Stride]" is not in practice more restrictive than Fleeting Ghost.

Either the character begins movement hidden, in which case Shadow Stride is simply better than Fleeting Ghost, or the character begins exposed, in which case they must be moving to Total Concealment or Superior Cover in order to become hidden. In the latter case, Fleeting Ghost gives a slight edge, as it eliminates the movement penalty to the initial Stealth check, but once hidden, the first case obtains, and Shadow Stride becomes superior.

In other words, compared to Shadow Stride, Fleeting Ghost, as currently interpretted, is only useful when attempting to Become Hidden. All other times, when you are already hidden, Shadow Stride is better.

So how useful is this? On the next turn after you've hidden, you move and make another Stealth check anyway, it might as well be a Shadow Stride.

Also, on rereading, the paragon tier feat Shadow Stride appears to be poorly written: "You do not incur penalties to your Stealth checks if you move your full speed while hiding or sneaking. You still take the full penalty if you run." As written, it applies only when you move your full speed, and so does not apply if you are moving less than that, i.e., you are climbing a wall, walking a tight rope, shifting, moving more than 2 squares but less than your speed.

In any case, Skill Focus: Stealth is a heroic tier feat, and appears better than than the epic feat Secret Stride.

Smeelbo

 

[Oompa]

My two favorite classes to play are Ranger and Rogue, so I've been giving a lot of thought to Stealth and multi-classing lately. Upon careful reading of the Rogue powers, it appears to me that Shadow Stride makes Fleeting Ghost pretty much useless.
This is generally interpreted as giving you an At-Will Move Action that is an exception to Keeping Still, although a minority intepret it as allowing you to Become Hidden with ordinary Cover or Concealment. Let's assume the majority interpretation for now.
This allows the character to "Panzerbush," that is, dart from cover to cover while remaining hidden, even if the terrain in between is clear. However, if I understand correctly, this ability obseletes Fleeting Ghost. Upon obtaining Shadow Stride, one would immediately retrain Fleeting Ghost.

At first glance, they appear to pertain to two different situations. However, the requirement that "you must be hiding to use [Shadow Stride]" is not in practice more restrictive than Fleeting Ghost.

Either the character begins movement hidden, in which case Shadow Stride is simply better than Fleeting Ghost, or the character begins exposed, in which case they must be moving to Total Concealment or Superior Cover in order to become hidden. In the latter case, Fleeting Ghost gives a slight edge, as it eliminates the movement penalty to the initial Stealth check, but once hidden, the first case obtains, and Shadow Stride becomes superior.

In other words, compared to Shadow Stride, Fleeting Ghost, as currently interpretted, is only useful when attempting to Become Hidden. All other times, when you are already hidden, Shadow Stride is better.

So how useful is this? On the next turn after you've hidden, you move and make another Stealth check anyway, it might as well be a Shadow Stride.

Also, on rereading, the paragon tier feat Shadow Stride appears to be poorly written: "You do not incur penalties to your Stealth checks if you move your full speed while hiding or sneaking. You still take the full penalty if you run." As written, it applies only when you move your full speed, and so does not apply if you are moving less than that, i.e., you are climbing a wall, walking a tight rope, shifting, moving more than 2 squares but less than your speed.

In any case, Skill Focus: Stealth is a heroic tier feat, and appears better than than the epic feat Secret Stride.

Smeelbo

Fleety ghost is really handy when you want to back up from combat and hide behind a wall etc (i rule you still need cover etc)..

Shadow stride is handy to use when you want to go from one end to the other, while passing enemies and the likes..

Its the situation where the use can be handy or not.. but i do not see any real problems..

As long as you move more than 2 squares on of the both powers is handy, depends on the situation..

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Shadow Stride, Rogue Utility 10, PHB122 + Errata][/b]
At-Will, Martial, Move Action, Personal
Prerequisite: Must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: You must be hidden to use this power. You can move your speed and must end your movement in a space where you can remain hidden. Then make a Stealth check with no penalty for moving. If the check succeeds, you remain hidden during the movement, even if you have no cover or concealment during it.

On another thread on stealth I stated a thesis, and let's think about it once more.

The last sentence (bolded) is the important one. Others said that until the end of an action which brakes stealth you are hidden.

If I used my move action to move from superior cover to superior cover with squares in between w/o any form of cover I would remain hidden because I lose stealth at the end of the stealth breaking action but we are in scover again so we can roll stealth and are hidden again. And we wouldn't be seen in the squares w/o cover.

So if the people that are saying that, are right -the power above is (next to) useless.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

The last sentence (bolded) is the important one. Others said that until the end of an action which brakes stealth you are hidden.

That language is imprecise. "If you take an action which causes you not to remain hidden, you retain the benefits of being hidden until the completion of the action." That isn't the same as remaining hidden until the completion of the action. from the FAQ: "16. What are the benefits of being hidden? There are several benefits of being hidden from an enemy - you have combat advantage against them and they will have a more difficult time targeting you because you are unseen. Page 281 of the Player's Handbook explains the rules for targeting unseen creatures."

If I used my move action to move from superior cover to superior cover with squares in between w/o any form of cover I would remain hidden because I lose stealth at the end of the stealth breaking action but we are in scover again so we can roll stealth and are hidden again. And we wouldn't be seen in the squares w/o cover. So if the people that are saying that, are right -the power above is (next to) useless.

You stop being hidden when you attack, though you still retain the benefits of the target granting you combat advantage and you being unseen. Being unseen, but not hidden, means, "If an invisible creature is not hidden from you, you can hear it or sense some other sign of its presense and therefore know what space it occupies, although you still can't see it." So the enemy is going to know where you are along the path of your movement, and where you end that movement before making a stealth check. Unless you have Shadow Stride that is. The summary of benefits to being unseen, but not hidden amount to: Creatures which can't see you grant you combat advantage. Creatures which can't see you take a -5 penalty on attacks against you. You don't provoke opportunity attacks from creatures that can't see you. Note that the benefit of combat advantage from being hidden and combat advantage from being unseen aren't necessarily redundant. An enemy with the Blind-Fight feat for example, would negate all of the benefits of you being unseen (if you were adjacent) but you would still gain combat advantage by virtue of the benefit of being hidden.

 

[nittanytbone]

Note that the feat can be taken by anyone. It is probably more useful for a ranger or other stealthy-type character (even a Wand Wizard with stealth training, for example) than it is for a rogue.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I think you are wrong MyISPHatesENWorld, there is no being unseen when you use stealth, there is only being hidden. But read on.

From the stealth update:

Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as you meet these requirements.
GR1 Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment,
or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden.
GR2 Keep Quiet: If you speak louder than a whisper or otherwise draw attention to yourself, you don’t remain hidden from any enemy that can hear you.
GR3 Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a new Stealth check with a –5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is –10. If any enemy’s passive Perception check beats your check result, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy.
GR4 Don’t Attack: If you attack, you don’t remain hidden.

I labeled them general rule 1-4 (GR1-4)

Here is a specific rule (I assume that SR1 trumps GR1-4):

SR1 Not Remaining Hidden: If you take an action that causes you not to remain hidden, you retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action. You can’t become hidden
again as part of that same action.

On the one hand we have Fleeting Ghost which has currently to interpretations:
I1: FG removes the penalty for moving more than two squares.
I2: as I1 plus you can become hidden if you have at least cover/concealment and you can become hidden even if this very movement broke your state of being hidden.

OTOH we have shadow stride, which allows you to move from cover/concealmet to cover/concelment w/o being seen, and w/o penalty.

If FG I2 is the right one, FG is better than SS. FG can do everything you can do with SS, and you can become hidden with less than scover/tconcealment.

Another issue I have with SS is:
If I'm hidden and I move (w/o SS) across squares w/o cover/concealment, I'm hidden until I complete my move action or action that granted me the movement (SR1). So far I'm doing as good as s.o. using SS. But after that very move action I would lose my state of being hidden (GR1). And could not make a new stealth chek as part of the same action even if I would have ended my movement in a square with scover/tconcealment (SR1).
If I end the movement in square where the enemy has no LoS to he hears me but still can't see me. SS users are not far ahead in what they gain.
Let's assume I have a move action left and my square has sc/tc I could make a new stealth check and are left in a situation a bit worse than s.o. using SS.

So we could bring up some more uses of SS and probably notice that in some cases just using stealth as written leaves you with options nearly as good.
SS sounds not so great to me -- especially when you use I2 of FG.

If SS was worded like this it would be ok I think for a lvl10 power:

Originally Posted by Shadow Stride, Rogue Utility 10, PHB122 + Errata
At-Will, Martial, Move Action, Personal
Prerequisite: Must be trained in Stealth.
Effect: You can move your speed and must end your movement in a space where you have at least cover or concealment. Then make a Stealth check with no penalty for moving. If the check succeeds, you become hidden.

And would nicely replace FG I1. It would be better than now even w/o the last sentence because the funny thing about the last sentence is.

If the check succeeds, you remain hidden during the movement, even if you have no cover or concealment during it.

This is a useless information because it is already covered in SR1. And you gain nothing from that sentence.

 

[Smeelbo]

I interpret the phrase "retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action" as meaning all the mechanical advantages for combat purposes, especially combat advantage and avoiding opportunity attacks, but you are specificly not hidden. Further, since "you can’t become hidden again as part of that same action," then Fleeting Ghost does not act as a substitute for Shadow Stride.

I am not sure how to properly interpret Fleeting Ghost, except it does not remove the penalty for movement. Instead, it is an at-will move action that is an exception to the penalty. In contrast, Secret Stride does remove the penalty, although it should say "up to your speed."

Smeelbo

 

[deleteme123456]

Smeelbo's right about it not removing the penalty, because for example, if you used another at-will move action, like boots of teleportation, you would not benefit from Fleeting Ghost, but you would benefit from Secret Stride.

As-written and errata'ed, I think Shadow Stride does (mostly) obsolete Fleeting Ghost, and I'm not entirely sure that's a horrible problem, since it's nice to see classes have options for utilities.

Edit: On further consideration, FG is actually useful more often than SS, because the majority of the time (from what I've seen), Rogues go "(hidden already) attack with CA (lose hidden) -> move (hide)" which means you have to go move your speed again, although if you used Deft Strike, you might only need to move 2 back to where you were, so maybe you don't need it at all.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I interpret the phrase "retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action" as meaning all the mechanical advantages for combat purposes, especially combat advantage and avoiding opportunity attacks, but you are specificly not hidden.

One of the benefits of being hidden is being invis. But that is in fact not even relevant. SR1 states that you retain the benefits of being hidden, and one of those benefits is being hidden by itself.

Further, since "you can’t become hidden again as part of that same action," then Fleeting Ghost does not act as a substitute for Shadow Stride.

FG I2 assumes that FG trumps many GR and even trumps the last sentence of SR1. I assume that just because it doesn't say otherwise.

I am not sure how to properly interpret Fleeting Ghost, except it does not remove the penalty for movement. Instead, it is an at-will move action that is an exception to the penalty. In contrast, Secret Stride does remove the penalty, although it should say "up to your speed."

Smeelbo

I thought that I don't have to mention that you have to use a power to gain its benefits. But obviously that assumption was wrong.
And therefore, FG does remove the penalty for movement (!if you use it!).

Smeelbo's right about it not removing the penalty, because for example, if you used another at-will move action, like boots of teleportation, you would not benefit from Fleeting Ghost, but you would benefit from Secret Stride.

See above.

As-written and errata'ed, I think Shadow Stride does (mostly) obsolete Fleeting Ghost, and I'm not entirely sure that's a horrible problem, since it's nice to see classes have options for utilities.

Edit: On further consideration, FG is actually useful more often than SS, because the majority of the time (from what I've seen), Rogues go "(hidden already) attack with CA (lose hidden) -> move (hide)" which means you have to go move your speed again, although if you used Deft Strike, you might only need to move 2 back to where you were, so maybe you don't need it at all.

I think it is obvious that the usefulness of SS depends on the intepretation of FG. If FG I1 is correct than SS has a place. If FG I2 is correct than SS is useless. If some interpretation between I1 and I2 is correct than the usefulness of SS depends on the situation.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree with Smeelbo. There is quite a bit of difference between FG and SS.

Lets say I want to move from one piece of concealment to another and I am already hidden.

With FG if I do this I WILL be visible in the intervening squares. I can BECOME hidden again when I reach the next concealment (even if it is NOT total concealment, this is what the granting of a stealth check DOES, if it didn't why would it be mentioned). As an added benefit I avoid the -5 penalty to the new check. Note that enemies which can see me during the move can target me with OA or prepared actions, etc. In general they know I'm around, and logically they will probably make minor action perception checks to locate me at the destination square, or simply target the square itself if they are at all intelligent monsters.

SS is MUCH better. I can now move between one cover and the other and assuming I make the stealth check (again with the -5 penalty removed) I AM NEVER SEEN AT ALL. The benefits of being hidden remain the entire time and no monster will even have a reason to imagine that I'm there, they've seen nothing.

As for the "benefit of being hidden is removed at the end of the action", this is NOT intended to be interpreted to remain that you ARE still hidden during the action. It means the benefits to YOU do not "expire" until the action is finished, so for example if you attack while hidden you have CA because the advantage of being hidden (the CA) continues to the end of the action. This was a necessary errata because otherwise one could easily interpret the stealth rules in such a way that CA could NEVER be granted by being hidden. Even more to the point it works with Deft Strike.

So the two powers FG and SS are similar in some respects, but SS is almost a superset of FG. The only real advantage of FG is it doesn't require you to START hidden, which means you can use it to 'dart into cover' and hide (IE you leap into the bushes and disappear all in a flash). SS OTOH is MUCH better in that it actually lets you move ANYWHERE and BE hidden during the move. There is some overlap in their uses, but it would certainly be handy to have both powers.