Shadowdancers

[Pielorinho]

Which is fine, but I think you (generic-you) need to pick one. You can't let your players be minmaxers and then complain when they get too good at it...

I guess I go in the other direction: I discourage minmaxing, but when I try to come up with cool things for PCs (treasures, new magic abilities, PrCs), I'm less concerned with how well-balanced it is than with how cool it is. I'll give a PC a super-expensive custom-designed sword if I think it'll make the PC seem more interesting; likewise, I won't allow a PrC that doesn't make sense to me, no matter how underpowered it might be.

Daniel

 

[Kai Lord]

From the WOTC Message Board:

DrNukem:
Hide in Plain Site (HiPS) by definition is a Supernatural Ability.
Supernatural abilities require a standard action to activate.

The Monk's speed becomes a SU ability at 9th level. Does a monk have to spend a Std Action to move greater than 60' in one action?

The Sage:
No.

DrNukem:
Based on that logic, does HiPS require a Std Action to activate or is it an enhancement to Hide?

Sage:
No, it works just like the hide skill (you use it as a move action as part of a move action).

DrNukem:
An official ruling would be very nice as my group has been discussing this for days now.

Sage:
There it is.

Skip Williams
RPG R&D

And, from Monte Cook's message boards:

Q:
Our group has been discussing the Shadow Dancer prestige class a lot lately. In particular, how the Hide in Plain Sight ability works. I received some clarification from The Sage regarding what type of action it is (basically same as hide, which is part of a move or move equiv action).

What I'd really like to get clarified is whether or not this ability requires that you hide *IN* the shadow or simply *WITHIN* 10' as the description states. Was the original intention to simple use the shadow to "feed" the SU ability, or to actualy hide in?

MONTE COOK:
You don't actually hide "in" the shadow. It just sort of enables it.

Q:
Also, how would Lowlight vision or Darkvision affect this ability? Would it negate it completely as both of these abilities would technically negate any shadows?

MONTE COOK:
Darkvision or lowlight shouldn't affect hiding, even this kind of hiding.

 

[phadeout]

Sorry to bring this back up... but I just spent 7.50US on the search function to find this answer... See the post above mine...

It answered ALL my questions in ONE fell swoop! Finally!

Move-action. Check.
10' of a shadow, not "in" a shadow (size is still to DM discretion, which is fine). Check.
Low-Light Vision and Darkvision mean Diddly. Check!

woot.

 

[frankthedm]

Nowhere in the rules for hiding are your targets denied thier DEX bonuses. HiPS all you want, if your foe is not flat footed, you'll need a flank to sneak attack or a generous DM.

Hide (Dex; Armor Check Penalty)
Check
Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16.

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.

Sniping
If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

Creating a Diversion to Hide
You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.

See also epic usages of Hide.

Action
Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Special
If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.

If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Hide checks.

A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17thlevel ranger can do this even while being observed.

 

[Shadowdancer]

There we go. Now that the description is handy for refrence, my take on how it works.


Say you're in a 20ft x 20ft room, 10ft high. No features or windows. One entry way, a door on one wall that opens into the room. The only furnishing is a single chair in the exact center of the room. Light is coming from overhead by way of a glass ball enchanted with permanant light spell. You are 10ft from both the door, and the chair, standing between the two, out in the open.

Someone opens the door, to interact with you in some way. You don't want to interact with them, so you decide to Hide In Plain Sight. Your options would be: use the shadows under the chair, use the shadows behind the door that was just opened into the room, use the shadow of the man in the doorway. You are within 10 feet of all of these. You take a standard action to use HiPS (it being all supernatural and whatnot) and make a Hide check, opposed by the other guy's Spot check. If you succeed, you disappear from sight. Now here's the rub..

Say you hide under the chair. If the guy overturns the chair... you appear. Your hiding spot was ruined. You can take another standard action on your turn to pick another hiding spot.

Say you were hiding in the shadows behind the opened door. If the guy steps into the room and closes the door... you appear. The shadows went away when the door was closed. Again, you can hide again, but until your turn comes up, you're visible.

Say you were hiding in the guy's shadow. If he takes a 5ft step backward out of the room... you appear. Your hiding spot just went outside of your range. Likewise, if you hide in the door shadow, or the chair shadow, and you move more than 10ft away from them, you appear, because you and your 'anchor' became more than 10ft seperate

If the light source causing the shadow is inside the room, and based on your description above, it sounds like it is, then the shadow of the man in the doorway would fall outside the room. In order to hide in his shadow, the SD would have to get past the man in the doorway.

Just something to consider.

And just for the record -- I can hide in the shadow cast by your cursor.

 

[phadeout]

And just for the record -- I can hide in the shadow cast by your cursor.

Once again... You are not hiding "IN" the shadow...

 

[molonel]

The majority of fears expressed here regarding shadowdancers are unfounded. The sniping rules suggested early on are a good (and logical) extension of the rules. HiPS is both better than invisibility, and worse than invisibility. If you can't handle a sneak attack every round from a hiding shadowdancer (minimum ECL 9? 10?) then you've got more problems in your game than the shadowdancer already. And yes, it's a hide action to use HiPS. Narfing it by making it a standard action is just absurd, and unnecessary.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Once again... You are not hiding "IN" the shadow...

OK, I can use the shadow cast by your cursor to hide myself. Better?

 

[Timely Drought]

As I understand it, attacking while invisible and hiding are the same, however the combat modifiers section doesn't say. So I'm not quite sure.

COMBAT MODIFIERS
FAVORABLE AND UNFAVORABLE CONDITIONS

Table: Attack Roll Modifiers
Attacker is...               Melee     Ranged
Dazzled                      –1        –1
Entangled                    –2*       –2*
Flanking defender            +2        —
Invisible                    +2**      +2**
On higher ground             +1        +0
Prone                        –4        —***
Shaken or frightened         –2        –2
Squeezing through a space    –4        –4
* An entangled character also takes a –4 penalty to Dexterity, which may affect his attack roll.
** The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC. This bonus doesn’t apply if the target is blinded.
*** Most ranged weapons can’t be used while the attacker is prone, but you can use a crossbow or shuriken while prone at no penalty.

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/combatModifiers.html

 

[Saeviomagy]

Ok, for all those crying and wetting their pants about HiPS, stop and think for a second about what it really does.

Hiding is (part of) a move action.

So, if you can stab someone and then hide, what really happens?

Well, next round, if you're still next to them (unlikely), you can step out and stab them again. Or you'll have to move (while hiding) and then stab. At which point you're visible. Hide-fight-hide is simply not feasable.

"Oh, but it's super powerful to be able to flat-foot someone for an attack"

The bluff skill and a single feat (a paltry sum compared to the requirements and penalties of shadowdancer) already do that, and they're opposed by a less common skill (sense motive instead of spot).

Not to mention something like a ring of invisibility.

In short - a level of shadowdancer, giving up sneak attack, skill points, and a few feats is balanced against a single skill and feat combination that does the same.