shield bash and two-weapon fighting

[fl8m]

how does shield bash work?
#1 if i hit a guy with my axe then bash him with my shield (assuming i'm 6th level so my bab is +6/+1) what penalties do i take to attack?

#2 also if I only have a shield (bad guy broke my axe ) what penalties do i take to hit with my shield since it's in my off-hand.

#3 if i have a throwing axe and a shield and throw the axe, then bash with my shield what penalties do i take?

 

[Hypersmurf]

how does shield bash work?
#1 if i hit a guy with my axe then bash him with my shield (assuming i'm 6th level so my bab is +6/+1) what penalties do i take to attack?

There's debate.

Some would say "You're wielding a second weapon in your off-hand; therefore you incur two-weapon fighting penalties."

Others would say "You're not making use of the extra off-hand attack, only your normal iteratives... therefore you don't incur two-weapon fighting penalties."

#2 also if I only have a shield (bad guy broke my axe ) what penalties do i take to hit with my shield since it's in my off-hand.

There's debate. Some say "There's no handedness in 3.5!" But others point to the definition of 'off hand' in the glossary, where it defines it as "A character's weaker or less-dextrous hand (usually the left)", incurring a -4 attack penalty and adding half Str bonus to damage.

#3 if i have a throwing axe and a shield and throw the axe, then bash with my shield what penalties do i take?

See #1.

-Hyp.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I can't figure out whether I'm "some" or "others" in Hypersmurf's discussion there, but my take on it is this:

1. No penalties. You haven't made an extra attack with your off-hand. If you made one attack with a weapon, found it to be ineffective and then dropped it to attack with a spiked gauntlet (or to quickdraw a different weapon and attack with it) there wouldn't be any penalty. I see no reason that you would take penalties for attacking with a shield. (Or at least, no good reasons--I don't buy the arguments of Hypersmurf's "some" here).

Note, however, that if you don't have improved shield bash, you will lose your shield bonus to AC until the beginning of your next round.

2. Again, no penalties. There's no handedness in 3.5. Hypersmurf's "others" are making two much out of a rule that is intended to apply to two weapon fighters and their damage bonus. More importantly, a shield is MEANT to be wielded in the off hand. That's the hand it's in when the character trains with it. If I were handing out penalties on the basis of making sense, I'd hand out penalties for attacking with a shield in the "primary" hand, not the other way around.

3. See above. I'm decidedly in the "no penalties" (except losing your shield bonus and incurring an AoO if you make that ranged attack while in someone's threatened area) camp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

1. No penalties. You haven't made an extra attack with your off-hand.

No, you haven't, but you are wielding a second weapon in your off hand.

It depends on how you interpret 'fighting this way'... but note that in the 3E Main FAQ, the question on Defending weapons states that if you wish to benefit from the AC bonus of a Defending weapon in your off hand (a bonus that applies to 'the wielder', note), you incur TWF penalties... whether or not you attack with that weapon.

Therefore, it seems, the TWF penalties are not dependent on whether or not the bonus attack is used, but whether a second weapon is wielded in the off hand.

More importantly, a shield is MEANT to be wielded in the off hand. That's the hand it's in when the character trains with it.

That's right... but it's still your 'weaker or less dextrous hand'.

The fact that you practise with the shield in that hand doesn't change the fact that it's weaker or less dextrous... hence the penalties.

-Hyp.

 

[Storm Raven]

No, you haven't, but you are wielding a second weapon in your off hand.

It depends on how you interpret 'fighting this way'... but note that in the 3E Main FAQ, the question on Defending weapons states that if you wish to benefit from the AC bonus of a Defending weapon in your off hand (a bonus that applies to 'the wielder', note), you incur TWF penalties... whether or not you attack with that weapon.

No, it doesn't depend on hos you interpret "fighting this way", since the text makes it clear. From the SRD:

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.

The complete quote demonstrates that "fighting this way" requires that you gain an extra attack per round with the weapon. There is no penalty to fighting without gaining that extra attack.

Therefore, it seems, the TWF penalties are not dependent on whether or not the bonus attack is used, but whether a second weapon is wielded in the off hand.

No, it doesn't.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, it doesn't depend on hos you interpret "fighting this way", since the text makes it clear.

The text doesn't make it clear.

If you wield a second weapon in your off-hand, then:
a. You receive an extra attack with your off-hand, and
b. You incur penalties,

or

If you wield a second weapon in your off-hand and receive a bonus attack, then:
You incur penalties.

From the text alone, we can't tell whether 'fighting this way' refers to the second weapon or the bonus attack.

The complete quote demonstrates that "fighting this way" requires that you gain an extra attack per round with the weapon.

How does it demonstrate that? The method of fighting (wielding a second weapon) conveys a benefit (an extra attack). "Fighting this way" sound more like a reference to the method than the benefit to me... but it's ambiguous. That's why I note that it depends on interpretation.

But the FAQ answer lends support to the "wield a second weapon" reading, since it specifically notes that the penalties apply whether or not you make an attack with the off-hand weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[fl8m]

wow, it looks like i stumbled on a prickly problem here. oddly enough my gm and i were arguing these exact points. thanks for the opinons and refrences. It looks like it boils down to what interpretation your dm chooses (or can be convinced of)

 

[Aaron2]

Therefore, it seems, the TWF penalties are not dependent on whether or not the bonus attack is used, but whether a second weapon is wielded in the off hand.

Here's the way I look at it ...

I can be carrying the 150 lb. unconscious body of a party member with my left arm and still fight without penalty. Yet, if I exchange that body for a 1 lb. dagger, I'm suddenly -6 to hit. That makes no sense.


Aaron

 

[Lord Pendragon]

It looks like it boils down to what interpretation your dm chooses (or can be convinced of)

Well-said.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Here's the way I look at it ...

I can be carrying the 150 lb. unconscious body of a party member with my left arm and still fight without penalty. Yet, if I exchange that body for a 1 lb. dagger, I'm suddenly -6 to hit. That makes no sense.

You can carry that dagger in your off-hand with no problem. It's only if you wield it you have a problem.

If you're carrying it, but not wielding it, then you can't benefit from any abilities that apply to 'the wielder' (like Defending, for example), nor do you threaten an area with that weapon.

-Hyp.