Shield Guardian Cohort - How do I make it CR 17?

[Angel of Adventure]

So, I've got a new wizard in our group and his player mentioned that he wants to construct a Shield Guardian. I was thinking about letting the Shield Guardain (MMI) be his cohort and I was wondering:

1) If the Cohort level for his PC was 17 (highest possible cohort level under Leadership Feat) and the Shield Guardian's CR is 8, should I let him add 9 levels of a PC class? (Or should it be some other number, assuming that the cohort level is 17 total).

2) What if the PC just wants to advance the Shield Guardian to the equivelent of a CR 17 monster? How many HD should the Shield Guardian gain for advancement purposes? If anyone is feeling extra helpful, what would the adjusted statblock for a CR 17 Shield Guardian look like?

Thanks,

AoA

 

[Kirin'Tor]

The thing to keep in mind is that you don't need a _CR17_ Shield Guardian, you need an ECL17 Shield Guardian. Constructs have an LA of about +3, so, adjusted for that, and the SG's natural 15HD, I'd say it's good as it is...ECL total 18.

Since it's a cohort (though not intelligent, I assume) then I'd aloow him to "build in" the 6 feats an intelligent creature would get for those HD, as well as spend the 36 skill points (his choice of "class" skills) it would be owed as well. Oh yeah, and give it NPC weath as a 17th level char, just as a cohort would.

All that said, if he wants to build it, he should take Craft Construct, and spend the XP/GP to create it, (or spend GP for market price) just like any other piece of equipment.

It just _isn't_ a cohort, IMO:
Not Intelligent
No Feats\Skills
No NPC\PC Wealth (for Equipement)
No Quirky Personality\Goals for a DM to exploit

 

[Kirin'Tor]

Now, all that said...here's an advanced 28HD Shield Guardian, approx. CR17. As I said, the Cohort rule is by ECL, Not CR, but I couldn't help doing it anyway...

Advanced Shield Guardian: CR 17; Huge Construct ; HD 28d10 (Construct) ; hp 193; Init -1; Spd 30; AC:25 (Flatfooted:25 Touch:7); Atk +29 base melee, +18 base ranged; +29 (2d6+15, Slam); SQ: Racial Traits: Construct, Shield Other (Sp), Guard (Ex), Find Master (Su), Darkvision (Ex): 60 ft., Fast Healing (Ex): 5, Low-light Vision (Ex), Immunity: Critical hits (Ex), Cannot be Raised or Resurrected, Immunity: Necromancy (Ex), Immunity: Paralysis (Ex), Immunity: Ability Drain (Ex), Immunity: Stun (Ex), Immunity: Exhaustion (Ex), Immunity: Death Effects (Ex), No Natural Healing (Ex), Immunity: Fatigue (Ex), Immunity: Ability Damage (Ex), Immunity: Fortitude Save-Based Attacks (Ex), Immunity: Nonlethal Damage (Ex), Immunity: Poison (Ex), Immunity: Mind-Affecting Attacks (Ex), Immunity: Disease (Ex), Immunity: Death from Massive Damage (Ex), Immunity: Energy Drain (Ex), Immunity: Sleep Effects (Ex); AL N; SV Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +6; STR 30, DEX 8, CON --, INT --, WIS 10, CHA 1.

If you gave it Feats\Skills as per a normal conort, it'd have 10 Feats & 62 Skillpoints.

 

[Corlon]

that's the thing I never understood about ECL...isn't the level of a character their challenge rating, and therefore getting a cohort at level 17 would be CR 17 cohort. How is this equal to the shield guardian who is only CR 8.

 

[Jack Simth]

I suspect the distinction is a matter of WoTC presuming that PC's will be more inclined to min/maxing while browsing the MM than will the DM - after all, in most campaigns, a PC only needs to make one or more characters, while the DM needs to make quite a few; the players will usually have much more time to mull over how the assorted abilities interact and increase each other for any given combination than will the DM. For a Ghostly Fighter, the extra Charisma isn't going to help much (impacts AC and Ghostly abilities), while for a Sorceror with two Paladin levels that Charisma boost is going to: 1) Increase spell save DC's. 2) Increase Saves. 3) Increase AC vs. Material Plane encounters. 4) Boost the Ghost's "natural" abilities. 5) Increase Charisma-based skills. Thus, the ghost template adds only +2 to the CR of the base creature, but has a +5 LA.

 

[Kirin'Tor]

ECL is different from CR for one specific reason: ECL is long term, CR is short term.

CR is a measure of how difficult a creature is for a group of approx~4 equal level characters to defeat, assuming certain standards (PHB Classes, DMG Wealth Levels, etc.) CR shouldn't be used for anything other than short-term judgments (IMO including not using it for long-term villains), for example:

A creature that can cast DEATH KNELL at will probably wouldn't even get CR+1 out of it, considering that it will, likely at most, get to use it once before the PCs kill\bypass\trap\bargain\etc. there way past it. It could, potentially, affect the power level vs. the PCs _for that encounter_, but never again.

However, giving a PC DEATH KNELL at will would drastically alter the campaign: that PC would leave most battles with quite a bit of power, and would go into most battles at a much higher level than the PHB\DMG assumes..sure, an average (evil) cleric might go into up to 5* encounters under DEATH KNELLs affects per level, but not every battle leaves a kill and/or he won't always have it prepared.
But if he were _constantly_ under it's affects, he'd be much more powerful than expected....possibly as high as. LA+2
*(just under half - assuming 14 encounters per level, as the DMG does)

For a more extreme example, imagine your average 3rd level group fighting an orc ftr1 _constantly_ affected by TRUE STRIKE. Pretty rough, but would it really be tougher than a orc ftr1 and a orc sor1? The Sor could buff the orc, and they could potentially flank, throw magic missile, etc. So the TRUE STRIKE might make the orc CR+2, equivalent to 2 equal orcs.

Now imagine giving a PC an the opportunity to play the TRUE STRIKING ORC...I've got a feeling a 3rd level character with an attack bonus of +25 is a little more powerful than a 5th level character (+2 from the orcs CR adjustment). That character is more in line with a 7th+ level character, thus his LA (and ECL) are much higher than +2.

end ECL/CR rant...

 

[Silveras]

Challenge Rating (CR) is how much of a challenge a trap or creature is as a one-shot opponent.

Equivalent Character Level (ECL) is a measure of how useful/viable a creature is as an ongoing character (either as a PC or as a Cohort).

The things that make a creature a challenge to fight are not always the same as what make it a viable long-term character to play.

A CR8 encounter is defined as being something 4 8th level PCs (presumed 1 each of Figher, Wizard, Rogue, and Cleric) would have to use up 25% of their resources to get past.

Such a creature could be 12 HD with a low movement rate, weak attacks, and no special abilities at all, conceivably. Or, it could be 6 HD and incorporeal at will. The first one might be boring to play, but offers no real issues, and might have a Level Adjustment (LA) of +0. The second, though, would make a lot of traps and encounters too easy. Trap ? Go Incorporeal. Surprised at night ? Go Incorporeal. Need to hide ? Go Incorporeal. As such, a LA of +2, +3, or even +4 might be warranted.

So, what do we get ?

Lump: CR 8 monster, 12 HD + LA 0 = ECL 12 character (if allowed)
Incorporeal Knight: CR 8 monster, 6 HD + 4 LA = ECL 10 character (if allowed)

Hope that helps.

 

[Tatsukun]

I have always liked the example of the Ever-healing Goblin. Take a goblin, and give it the power to cast Cure Light Wounds (Caster Level 1) at will.

In a fight, is this goblin more powerful than a normal goblin? Maybe a little, maybe around the power of a Goblin Cleric (level 1 or 2). So the CR is right there around 1 or 2.

Now, which do you think you help a party more over the whole campaign; a 2nd level cleric or the goblin of infinite healing? That's what the ECL is for.

-Tatsu