Shields

[Kerrick]

Yeah, that makes sense. The only problem I can see is the same one we have for Dodge - it applies against only 1 attacker each round. Dodge is widely regarded as one of the most useless feats for precisely that reason, and a very common house rule is to simply apply a +1 dodge bonus to AC. (I went even further and said that you can take it multiple times.) While basing it on shield size is logical, it means that either a) everyone would use heavy shields; or b) everyone would ignore this rule in favor of the shield providing its bonus against ALL attackers (except flankers), like they do with Dodge.

 

[Hawken]

What about using my idea to "fix" the Dodge feat. Base the number of attackers it is used against on the character's BAB. The more accomplished he is at combat, the better he can keep track of multiple opponents. There's plenty of movies where accomplished fighters can keep from being hit when swarmed by multiple opponents until like the fourth or fifth guy lands a blow.

Another variant would be to increase the Dodge bonus by +1 per additional attack the character gets. BAB +6 gives Dodge a +2 bonus, BAB +11 gives Dodge a +3 bonus, etc.

Regarding your point on the shields:
Just limit the bonus (1/2 BAB + Shield AC) to AC to 1 attack (or 1 attacker). If the character takes the Weapon and Shield feat I mentioned, then they get to use the bonus against 2 attacks if they use a light shield (or have a +6 BAB), against 4 attacks with a heavy shield (or 3 if measuring by BAB), etc.

This way, the feat is useful and bypasses abuse or rule nerfiness from how I had originally written it.

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

As someone suggested above, I like the Shields ranging from +1 to +4 AC. I also would suggest that, when fighting defensively or using the full defense action, the base shield bonus to AC doubles. Base here just means the enhancement of an magic shield doesn't double, so a +2 Heavy shield goes from granting a +5 AC up to a +8 (not a +10). Anyway, here's the stuff I've been working on.

Improved Shields
While Bucklers still grant the normal +1 Shield AC and Tower Shields grant the normal +4 Shield AC, Light Shields now grant a +2 AC bonus and Heavy Shields now grant a +3 AC bonus. Bucklers, however, will no longer grant the -1 penalty to hit for off-hand attacks. Tower Shields now have no max dexterity restriction. Using that shield-hand to perform an action or attacking with the shield still negates the shield bonus to AC for that round.
Improved Buckler Defence and Improved Shield Bash and other effects have been subsumed into the new feat: Improved Shield Use.
SHIELD, +AC____HAND USE_____ ATTACKING W/ SHIELD__ PENALTIES
Buckler, +1 . . . . any item, any wpn . . cannot attack . . . . . .use > no +AC
Light Shield, +2 . any item, no wpn. . . .as per Light weapon . use > no +AC
Heavy Shield, +3 . no item, no wpn . as per One Handed wpn . use > no +AC
Tower Shield, +4 . no item, no wpn . . . cannot attack . . . . . . . . . . -2 to atks


New Feat: Improved Shield Use
Your have trained in using shield for offence and utility as well as defence.
Benefit:
Performing an action with your shield arm or using your shield to attack with does not remove the granted shield bonus to AC as normal. Using a Tower Shield does not incur a -2 penalty to attack rolls.

 

[Sadrik]

In the way back...

I used to allow combat expertise and fighting defensively be more effective when weilding a shield. Functioned similar to power attack with a two handed weapon.
I also had them ranging from +1 to +4.
I dropped the cover bit for Tower shields.
I dropped the feats for proficiency in them and instead made them weapons (as they are already), they remained martial weapons and made the tower shield an exotic weapon.

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

Defensively Fighting, Offensively Fighting

So, we agree that shields should help defense more. Good. My original version what that the base shields bonus, +1 to +4, doubled when fighting defensively or using total defense or even with at least a -2 penalty with combat expertise. Sadrik, you did an increased combat expertise ratio, like a +2AC per -1 or +3AC per -2. Is that correct? That might be useful in removing the ridiculous feat chains that TWF gets into like TW Defense. Instead, we could just say that when using combat expertise with a shield, you get a +2AC per -1 to hit. Do we need to cap this at an extra +1 per base shield bonus, so that Bucklers and Tower Shields don't both allow -5 to hit for +10AC stuff?

Should Fighting Defensively, Total Defense, and Combat Expertise all be rolled into one AC-for-attack Penalty trade off? Just like Power Attack with one-handed versus two-handed weapons, we just change the ratio depending on feats, weapons/shields used, class features, etc.

Okay, what about this.

DEFENSIVE ATTACK
A character's base defensive attack ratio is -2 to hit per +1 dodge AC. When defensively attacking, the character can take a -2 penalty to hit per tier (-2 at 1st, -4 at 11th, -6 at 21st).
Various things can increase the dodge bonus ratio granted by +1 each, as listed below:
- using a Shield
- having your off-hand free (maybe?)
- having the Combat Expertise feat
- having the Elaborate Parry class feature
- being adjacent to at least two other allies also using Defensive Attack

So, some examples:
A) a 2nd level Fighter with a Tower Shield can defensively fight and take a -2 to hit for a +2AC
B) an 12th level Duelist fighting with two weapons with the Elaborate Parry class feature and combat expertise can defensively fight for a -4 to hit to gain a +6AC
C) a 24th level Bladesinger fighting with his off-hand free, wearing a buckler, and possesing the combat expertise feat can defensively fight and take a -6 penalty to hit for a +12AC

As much as I love Bladesingers, maybe the off-hand free bonus shouldn't stack with having a shield, or should require another feat (Single-Handed Defense or something).

OFFENSIVE ATTACK
If I were to do the same thing to Power attack...
A character's base offensive attack ratio is -2 to hit per +1 damage with all weapons. When offensively attacking, the character can take a -2 penalty to hit per tier (-2 at 1st, -4 at 11th, -6 at 21st).
Various things can increase the damage bonus ratio granted by +1 each, as listed below:
- using a Two-handed Weapon
- having the Power Attack feat
- having that Frenzied Berserker class feature... Improved Power Attack?
- not using a shield (maybe?) or any armor heavier than light armor
- status effects like "Raging"

So, some examples:
A) a 2nd level Barbarian using a Greataxe, with no shield or armor, raging can offensively fight and take a -2 to hit for a +4 damage
B) an 12th level Frenzied Berserker fighting with two handaxes, improved Power Attack class feature, no shield and light armor, and Power Attack, and raging can offensively fight for a -4 to hit to gain a +10 damage (per handaxe)
C) a 24th level Bard/Barbarian fighting with a Greatsword, wearing no shield and light armor, and possesing the Power Attack feat, and Raging can defensively fight and take a -6 penalty to hit for a +15 damage

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

Sorry Sadrick, I forgot to ask: why did Tower Shield become an Exotic Weapon Prof? Maybe that allows more classes that grant EWP access to Tower Shield.

Please don't tell me you were think of making it like a "bastard sword" attacking shield; a +4 AC and a d10 damage is easily worth an EWP and working around having a one-handed offhand weapon. If that's that your thought train, then... "Oh Reginald- I DISAGREE" (english drive by> Family Guy).

 

[Sadrik]

As I recall, I changed power attack to:
-1 BAB for +0.5 damage with a light weapon
-1 BAB for +1 damage with a one handed weapon
-1 BAB for +1.5 damage with a two handed weapon

and I if I recall correctly I did the following with combat expertise:
-1 for +0.5 with no shield
-1 for +1 with buckler or light shield
-1 for +1.5 with heavy and tower shield

Fighting defensively was
-4 for +1 AC with no shield
-4 for +2 AC with buckler or light shield
-4 for +3 AC with heavy and tower shield


That seems right.

Edit to answer your question:
I did away shield proficiency feats. I did not feel the tower shield warranted being a martial weapon like all of the other shields due to it having its own feat for proficiency and the fighter being the only class that starts with it.

Edit again:
On further thought it might have been:
2 handed weapon -1 for +1.5
and with shield (any) -1 for +1.5
and fighting defensive with shield -4 for +3

That seems more like it...

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

ratios

I like the idea of removing Fighting Defensively and Total Defense, but especially the idea of collapse many different effects into the same mechanic. Much smoother and less bookkeeping; less unintended stacking. I do like this idea ratios that take multiple effects into account. Consolidation is simplicity.

If you want some things to be REALLY important to defensively or offensively fighting, have them grant a +2 ratio bonus rather that a +1. I'm assuming you meant higher bonus for using heavy or tower shield, and for two-handed weapons. So how about these changes.

DEFENSIVE ATTACK
-2 to hit per +1 dodge AC (2/1 ratio)
can take a -2 penalty to hit per tier (-2 at 1st, -4 at 11th, -6 at 21st).
Various things can increase the dodge bonus ratio granted by +1 each (unless otherwise noted), as listed below:
- using a Shield: +1 if a Buckler or Light Shield, +2 if a Heavy or Tower Shield
- using heavy armor
- having a free hand and the Single-handed Defense feat
- having the Combat Expertise feat
- TWFing and having the TW Defense feat
- having the Elaborate Parry class feature
- being adjacent to another ally also using Defensive Attack
- maybe some "Tactics" feat (don't attack at all one round, +2 defensive ratio next round?)
- ratio gets -1 penalty if using a Two-Handed weapon
- using a "defending" (still +1) enchanted weapon

OFFENSIVE ATTACK
-2 to hit per +1 damage with all weapons. (2/1 ratio)
can take a -2 penalty to hit per tier (-2 at 1st, -4 at 11th, -6 at 21st).
Various things can increase the damage bonus ratio granted by +1 each (unless otherwise noted), as listed below:
- using a Two-handed weapon grants +2
- ratio gets a -1 if using a light weapon in primary hand (not if off hand)
- having the Power Attack feat
- having that Frenzied Berserker class feature... Improved Power Attack?
- not using a shield (maybe?) or any armor heavier than light armor
- status effects like "Raging"
- charging
- maybe some "Tactics" feat (don't attack at all one round, +2 offensive ratio next round?)
- using an "offensive" (say +1) enchanted weapon

 

[Sadrik]

Honestly I would rather have power attacka dn combat expertise be static numbers rather than sliding rations as they are set up in 3.5.

Going with my examples earlier:
PA
-4 BAB, +4 damage with light and one-handed weapons
-4 BAB, +6 damage with two-handed weapons
CE
-4 BAB, +4 AC with no shield
-4 BAB, +6 AC with a shield

Just making them static numbers makes it easier for a DM to use them. Simply flip the switch on or turn it off. There is no calculation required in between.

Fight Defensive and your fight offensively could fall allong the same paradigm -4, +2 (or +3 with a 2 hander or shield).

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

If you want the remove the idea of "-2 per tier" and just have a set -4 penalty, go ahead. I don't think that the best way to go, progression-wise, but if it helps stats for DMing monsters, then do so.

Collapsing Fighting Offensively and Fighting Defensively into the same scale I think is a really BAD idea. My first beef is thematic: having a really big greatsword does help you offensively attack, and having a shield does help one's defensive ability. But, Greatswords don't help defense, Shields don't help offense. So why?

More important though is game balance. A fighter specs int both the offensive and defensive trees. He can now take a -2 penalty to attack for, say, +4 to damage per attack and +4 AC. There is no tactical trade-off, not enough lost to create reasonable opportunity cost; that's all the character does. Broken. A TWFer could get like +5 to damage per attack per weapons and like +4 or +5 AC per round for -2 to hit: NOT balanced. Even say you can only do either at once and not both still gives too much flexibility and power I'd say.

So, I'd say two scales/ratios are necessary:
- Fighting Offensively
- Fighting Defensively
- both are -2 to attacks for +1 bonus per tier, and get further bonuses with other feats, fighting styles, class features, enchantments, etc... or penalties