Shintoesque D&D

[Shades of Green]

Supposing that we're using a battle mat, I would say that they can run off the map and onto one that PCs can't get to (if they run off the same map edge they're back in the mortal realm). But the sacred area is like a nexus that exists in both the mortal realm and spirit realm at once, so the spirit actually has to hoof it to the map edge to get away (at which point it ducks behind a rock or tree or whatever and is just gone). Demons can do this, but only when they're in one of those areas. Though they're free to travel in the mortal realm, when they're there, they're there and just have to deal with it.

So, if I understand this correctly, Demons can only enter the Mortal worlds through the Sacred Areas of Gods. This has very interesting setting implications.

For example, can a God control who or what passes through his/her/its Sacred Area? If so, then SOMEONE is letting those Demons in (or out) - or do they pay someone for the passage?

And, if Demons cannot enter the Spirit World anywhere but at a God's Sacred Area, then how come that Eladrin can pass through the Spirit Worlds using their racial power?

Good question.

Thanks!

 

[Shades of Green]

I do this because in my setting I DO want there to be "mook creatures" that are cooler than normal animals, but aren't taboo to thwack. You don't (or at least I don't) want every single creature to have religious protection, sometimes you need to let players stab something in the face repeatedly and make amulets out of its bones.

From what I recall, in many animistic religions, conflict/combat with spirits is not taboo, and might be, in fact, one of the things that heroes do.

 

[Korgoth]

Well, not all sacred places are currently inhabited by gods... the god of a place may have been killed by another spirit or by adventurers, or perhaps a new place has opened up and that's how the demons are coming in.

Also, demons in Telluria are not necessarily evil. They're just dreaded because they're unpredictable to normal folk. But really they're just another type of spirit.

And, if Demons cannot enter the Spirit World anywhere but at a God's Sacred Area, then how come that Eladrin can pass through the Spirit Worlds using their racial power?

Well, the Eladrin aren't able to stay in the Spirit World, they're just using it. Why can't demons do the same thing? I don't know.

 

[Meek]

From what I recall, in many animistic religions, conflict/combat with spirits is not taboo, and might be, in fact, one of the things that heroes do.

I know, I was speaking of my own stuff, and of some of the stuff in this thread. Part of the reason you want sacred things to be sacred is to make it a bit more complex to for the player deal with them – so they don't simply roll initiative and slaughter them like any other critter, they have to consider that in the setting these are sacred beings. That's also why you want a category of nonsacred beings for simple fights.

In my own games though, you can't KILL spirits (that is bad, always, full stop) but you CAN honorably defeat them, and in their humiliation against a mortal they must do what you want (go away).

 

[Shades of Green]

I think that this kind of religion would actually work very, very well with a heroic campaign; this makes gods far more accessible to heroes, and high-level heroes - heck, even mid-level heroes - can go toe to toe with gods. Which is epic.

I'm also thinking about giving spirits/gods thematic non-combat powers. For example, a Dryad or Treant may be able to increase the fertility of nearby fields and orchards, while a Dragon Sylph may be able to control weather in a certain radius and a Dragon might be able to increase miners' chances of finding precious metals. This will give mortals - including non-heroic (level 0 in BFRPG) NPCs - a good reason to interact with spirits. For example, a Beltane feast might be organized every year in honor of the local Dryad to ensure the continued fertility of the fields, and virgins might be sacrificed to a dragon so that the local lord could get richer ore from the local gold mine.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

From what I recall, in many animistic religions, conflict/combat with spirits is not taboo, and might be, in fact, one of the things that heroes do.

Not just "do"- sometimes it's required by the spirits themselves. There are stories in which the hero cannot get a spirit's blessing without defeating a spirit's challenge...which may involve actual head to head competition or even combat. Sometimes, if the spirit is hostile and afflicting the locals, the spirit must be vanquished.

 

[Shades of Green]

Exactly. Fighting spirits is something heroes do (at least in my planned campaign); fighting gods (i.e. powerful spirits such as dragons) is part of many epic stories.

And the spoils of such a battle can be legendary, too - the skin of a dragon is the skin of a god, and thus has fabled qualities!

But that brings about an interesting question: what happens when a god dies? The way I see it, if an evil spirit is destroyed, its evil influence - which is usually some sort of a curse - is lifted. If a powerful spirit dies, however, it should change the world in some way...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, in some cases, the defeated spirit is not destroyed- in fact, may not be destroyable- but may be weakened and banished. Some spirits can possess other beings- like the legendary manitou, Wendigo, or in some traditions, the skin-walkers we would call werewolves.

 

[Shades of Green]

I think I'll make the result of killing a spirit dependent on the type of spirit at hand. Many "god" monsters - vampires, dragons, aboleths, beholders and so on - would die once and for all when slain, though slaying them in the first place shouldn't be easy (to say the least). The spirits of the dead which could be found on the Mortal World or close to it are ones who have a reason to linger there instead of going to the Realm of the Dead; "slaying" them would banish them to that Realm, but if they have a good reason to stay near the Mortal World (say, revenge, improper burial and so on), they'll return to haunt the Mortal Realm once again unless this reason is taken care of. When you kill a nature spirit, the result depends on its kind; slaying a wholesome nature spirit would cause the area to whither; slaying a corrupt nature spirit would clean its taint from the area.

 

[Starfox]

You mean it's possible we can stop Hextor's reign of terror if we just ... give him a hug and get Heironeous to apologize to him? I like it.

Basically yes. However, this is likely to be even harder than physically defeating him.

Well, in some cases, the defeated spirit is not destroyed- in fact, may not be destroyable- but may be weakened and banished.

Defeating Hextor without correcting the social ills that bred him in the first place will only be a temporary solution. All the angst that created him in the first place is still there. In TORG there was a cosm called Magna Veritas (or the Cyberpapacy) that was built on something like this; the angst of the people magically manifested as monsters. The repressive church had paladins fighting these monsters, defeating their evil but at the same time maintaining the cycle of oppression and violence.

We have something similar in the Forgotten Realms - evil gods being killed or banished, only to return (or have their niche filled) even nastier and more powerful.

A true hero who truly wants to defeat such an evil has to go beyond violence. He must act outside the normal strictures of his society and reach out to his people's legendary enemies. However... This is not the usual kind of hero of D&D or even fantasy in general. If you look at the history of fantasy worlds, it is full of temporary solutions achieved with good intent and violence and which failed after a time. And this is the way we want it in fiction - after all, what fun would a fantasy utopia where all problems had already been solved be for roleplaying? At the very least, this would be a very different kind of game.