Shooting blind...

[Dwarmaj]

Let me know if this sound legit:

Cleric is currently in the area of a silence spell, so he moves out of it and casts a quickened Obsuring Mist and casts Ethereal Jaunt. A Ranger who had shot the priest in the following round suspected that the cleric may turn ethereal (the cleric had turned ethereal in a previous battle) shot at clerics last known position using Force Arrows. The ranger had True Strike active and has Seeking on his bow.

I ruled that the ranger could shoot at the clerics last known position (even though he can no longer see the square he's shooting into), but would have a 50% miss chance as if the target were invisible. The spells on the ranger and his bow would negate the miss chance and since force arrows were used he could hit ethereal targets.

 

[UltimaGabe]

I'd let him. But purely because it's not like the ranger's a powergaming munchkin or something- he was well prepared, and knew exactly what he was doing. Go ahead.

 

[Keith]

The only problem with this (and I don’t think there is any easy solution) that I see is that the character ought to think the opponent could be anywhere in or beyond that mist. It is only the player who knows that because they have already moved, they must still be right where they cast from. It is a conflict between the game mechanics and what the actual situation would be like. I’m not sure allowing that spot to be targeted is a fair resolution because of the meta-gaming aspect. I think it is within the rules, though.
I would probably prefer to pick two or three adjacent squares and roll to see which exact spot is targeted with the blind shot. If it is the right one, use the miss chance- the other squares, no chance to hit at all. That is not from the rules, though.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I disagree. Remeber that a combat round is only six second long, and the initiative sequence is a rules aid, not meant to reflect reality. As the ranger sees it, he is ling up his shot on the fleeing cleric, who stops and utters a quick incantation that causes fog to billow out. Since the ranger was tracking the cleric, waiting for a good shot, his shot roughly conicides with the cleric pausing to cast. The initiative system is a contrivance to make the game run smoothly, not a realistic system. Appling logic to it from outside of its framework doesn't work.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Let me know if this sound legit:

All looks legal.

-Hyp.

 

[Newbie]

Let me know if this sound legit:

A Ranger who had shot the priest in the following round suspected that the cleric may turn ethereal (the cleric had turned ethereal in a previous battle) shot at clerics last known position using Force Arrows. The ranger had True Strike active and has Seeking on his bow.

My munchkin sense is tingling!

So he couldnt hear him then he couldnt see him (mist) then he coulndnt touch and he over came all of those without being a meta gaming munchkin?!?! no he cant hit him, slap him in the face if he tries it again!

 

[Hypersmurf]

So he couldnt hear him then he couldnt see him (mist) then he coulndnt touch and he over came all of those without being a meta gaming munchkin?!?!

He guessed that the opponent was in the last place he saw him.

He was using two effects specifically designed to overcome that fact that he couldn't see exactly where he was aiming (True Strike and Seeking, both of which overcome concealment).

The bow is specially designed to be able to "touch" an ethereal creature (Force).

Why does any of that require him to be a metagaming munchkin? If he'd guessed wrong, and rather than casting Etherealness, the opponent had continued moving, he'd have missed. He guessed right, so he hit.

-Hyp.

 

[Newbie]

The bow is specially designed to be able to "touch" an ethereal creature (Force).

Why does any of that require him to be a metagaming munchkin? If he'd guessed wrong, and rather than casting Etherealness, the opponent had continued moving, he'd have missed. He guessed right, so he hit.

First off he wasnt shooting a force bow, (witch i agree that would have changed alot of things) he changed to force arrows shot in the last place he some him witch was 12 seconds prior (2 rounds maybe more) now if the player could actully see where the clerics location was OoC (we use a big graph thing) then i would call him meta gamer but if it was just par chanc he shot in the same place with the force arrows (not that he had any idea he was ethreal, unless this char is very intellegent or has some sort of spell craft skill)...it all comes down to the dm but i would reach across the table and slap my player if he tried that, why if he cant see touch hear or feel why would he think he was still there? I would assume he just ran out when he did the mist.

 

[Hypersmurf]

shot in the last place he some him witch was 12 seconds prior (2 rounds maybe more)

No, it wasn't - it was in the same initiative sequence!

Cleric's initiative - move out of the Silence spell (the ranger can see him at this point; cast Quickened Obscuring Mist; cast Ethereal Jaunt.
Ranger's Initiative in the same round (or the next round, if the Range has a higher initiative) - shoot at where he saw the cleric.

(not that he had any idea he was ethreal, unless this char is very intellegent or has some sort of spell craft skill)...

The DM didn't say to the player "... and the Cleric casts Ethereal Jaunt". The ranger knew that the Cleric had turned ethereal in the last combat they'd fought against him, so he made a guess - correct, as it turned out.

The DM didn't leave the cleric's miniature sitting on the battlemat in the same position; he removed it when the Obscuring Mist was cast and nobody could see the cleric any more.

The ranger made some assumptions: 1. The Cleric may have turned Ethereal, like he did last time; and 2. The Cleric may still be where I saw him last.

There's no metagaming involved. These were decisions the ranger made that may or may not have been correct. It turned out he was right. He could just as easily have been wrong.

The Cleric could have cast his Quickened Obscuring Mist and moved another 40 feet away. In that case, the ranger would have fired his Force Arrows at completely the wrong square and wasted both time, and some useful magic items.

I would assume he just ran out when he did the mist.

That's a perfectly reasonable possibility. But given that the player didn't have any special knowledge - he didn't know the Cleric was ethereal, and he didn't know the Cleric hadn't moved - why is the player's assumption any more metagaming than your assumption that the Cleric ran away?

It's only metagaming if the player uses the knowledge that it's a game to dictate his actions. It's only using OOC knowledge if the player uses information that the ranger doesn't have. He didn't do either.

-Hyp.

 

[Keith]

To me, the character could have known and/or guessed that: 1) the opponent might be ethereal and 2) might still be out there somewhere. I think the LAST thing the character would reasonably guess is that the opponent stops moving, even for a split second, after creating mist to cover their escape/retreat/whatever.

It is the player who can think “IF he goes ethereal, I think he will be in the same spot because he likely can’t have continued moving after casting”.

I still think this does create a meta-gaming element to the situation. Not a bad one, but it is there.
I don’t think “My character shoots at the last spot where he saw a moving opponent” is a very credible way around it. Why does the character think the opponent stopped instead of continuing to move after they lost sight of them?

I guess it could depend on how much you want the way characters behave to reflect knowledge about casting and movement. If the goal, as someone who disagreed with me pointed out above, is to use the system to make the game run smoothly, I have my doubts about characters targeting out-of-sight individuals who they should probably think are moving by applying knowledge of how initiative works in the game.

I’m not sure I’m being very clear. What I mean is: in-game, a person is moving and you lose sight of them, and try to target them. Wouldn’t you pick anywhere BUT where you saw them before losing sight of them, on the assumption that they were moving? Why would you think they stopped, paused, or failed to continue moving? In this case, the opponent was in the same place. But I think only guessing that they have cast a spell results in the character suspecting that. Is that in-game knowledge? I’m not sure.

Cheers