Shot on the Run

[hong]

Well, yeah, if we're just making stuff up, I can produce a feat to allow multiple shots with Shot on the Run, too...

Take note of the first sentence in post 2 in this thread.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Take note of the first sentence in post 2 in this thread.

I'm pretty sure that post has, through some quantum mechanical process I can't quite explain, become invisible to everyone else.


Jeff

P.S. "Marcie? Is that you?"

 

[Hypersmurf]

That begs a question, Hyp. Have you ever bought and played with -- even recommend -- any third-party d20 products for your D&D game?

Ah. You haven't read any of the feats in the Compleat Book of Death Knights, I take it?

Take note of the first sentence in post 2 in this thread.

Well, the rules in this case perfectly reflect designer intent for the Manyshot feat, so they serve their intended purpose excellently.

-Hyp.

 

[FireLance]

In all seriousness, do y'all's non-ranger players even bother with Manyshot? There're so many better archery feats out there; just about the only way to make effective use of Manyshot is Shot on the Run. I have the min-maxing-rules-torturer of all time at my table, playing an archer, and he won't touch the feat.

Really? I question his min-max ability, then. Given that Manyshot imposes a -4 to -8 penalty to hit for the possibility of doing damage equal to 1 to 3 extra arrows, it can be even better than Power Attack. Assuming a Medium mighty (+2) composite longbow, that's +6.5 damage for -4 to hit, +13 damage for -6 to hit or +19.5 damage for -8 to hit. Give the bow an enhancement bonus and an energy or alignment property and you could be doing even more damage per arrow. And you only use a standard action, which means you can still move before or after your shot, and you make a single attack roll at your primary attack bonus, which synergizes very well with true strike. Admittedly, it is less effective against damage resistant enemies, but DR-bypassing ammunition is relatively cheap.

I've done up a quick and dirty analysis of Manyshot against a single ranged attack. It does ignore that extra damage from criticals and precision-based effects do not apply to the secondary arrows, but overall, optimally using Manyshot can increase your damage potential by about 70% if you face opponents whose AC are evenly distributed between 2 to 20 points higher than your best attack bonus (i.e. your base roll to hit is between 2 to 20). If your base roll to hit is evenly distributed between 5 to 15, optimally using Manyshot can still increase your average damage output by about 50%. Even if you don't apply Manyshot optimally and just Manyshot for 3, your damage potential increases by about 40% if your base roll to hit is between 5 to 15.

Manyshot will only be useless if your base roll to hit is always between 13 to 17.

Just as an interesting aside, I've also done a quick analysis of Manyshot against a full attack. It appears that Manyshot reduces your damage potential by about 20% on average for the privilege of making a move action.

 

[atom crash]

I've been thinking more and more lately that Manyshot is the most disappointing feat for archers. The Manyshot feat promises such cool things then utterly fails to deliver. Or only delivers in such a limited scope that it's not worth the feat.

You get to fire multiple arrows but only get one to-hit roll; they either all hit or all miss. Plus, when they all hit, they count as separate attacks for the purpose of overcoming DR. Is there any other feat that gives you multiple attacks for a single attack roll?

And thanks to the slick wording of a smooth-talking son of a gun (all attack actions are standard actions, but not all standard actions are attack actions? and this attack isn't actually an attack action?), you can't use it with Shot on the Run.

As a ranger, I'd be rather disappointed to get this feat as a class ability. Give them instead Point Blank or Precise Shot. or Shot on the Run. Something, anything, that is more universally useful.

And to think Manyshot was one of the exciting new feats used to hype up the 3.5 revision.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Atom, Firelance is right. Manyshot is a very good feat for the reasons he mentioned and a few others.

1. As discussed, it increases damage by 40-70% in a surprise round.
2. It mitigates the damage penalty you take for moving. Usually, it's 50-83% depending upon your level and your number of attacks. With manyshot, it's around 20%. That's a big improvement, wouldn't you say?
3. It increases your effectiveness when readying an action--for instance, readying to disrupt a spell.

Manyshot isn't a feat that you will use every round like weapon focus is. It's much more like cleave or one of the tactical feats--a feat that is very good within the situations it applies to and which applies to something like 10-20% of your actions.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You get to fire multiple arrows but only get one to-hit roll; they either all hit or all miss.

It is actually possible to hit with some arrows and miss with others, even in the same Manyshot

And thanks to the slick wording of a smooth-talking son of a gun (all attack actions are standard actions, but not all standard actions are attack actions? and this attack isn't actually an attack action?), you can't use it with Shot on the Run.

Given that it's what the author of the feat intended, the wording serves its purpose admirably.

-Hyp.

 

[atom crash]

It is actually possible to hit with some arrows and miss with others, even in the same Manyshot

Technically, yes, if you're using different type arrows, or if the target has Deflect Arrows or concealment. My point is that the one roll, multiple attacks of Manyshot is a screwy mechanic that IIRC shows up nowhere else in the game.

Given that it's what the author of the feat intended, the wording serves its purpose admirably

Perhaps that game designer could have used some of his glibness to elucidate of murky areas of the rules, such as flanking.

FireLance and Elder-Basilisk, thanks for the breakdown of Manyshot vs. full attack. The ranger IMC -- a fledgling gamer who happens to be my gf -- might appreciate your efforts. She keeps asking me when she should use one ability over another.

 

[BAW]

Your Calculations

Now, during your calculations did you include such feats as rapid shot and improved rapid shot? The effect of Haste (I believe this does not stack with Manyshot) perhaps too? Or was it just to making an attack instead?

Many shot is a one-off attack with a penalty applied to your attack bonus.

To get 2 shots applies a -4 to hit (granted you can still do other things with your move action having attacked)

Using Rapid shot is a full attack action, giving you a -2 penalty on all your shots but a larger number of attack rolls (depending on BAB).

Rapid shot works out better than Manyshot because although you have a move-action left, you will cause less damage on average (you either completely hit or completely miss).

Manyshot x3 arrows: -8
Rapid shot: 2 arrows at highest attack -2, 1 at -7 another at -12 (if applicable) etc.

And this is just with Rapid shot. As soon as Haste is applied or Improved Rapid shot, Many shot is usually a bad option.
It doesn't compare to a full attack.
It doesn't stack well with many of the feats archers take.
Problems with stacking Manyshot: Haste (not the extra attack anyway)
Shot on the Run
Improved critical (not the extra arrows)
Rapid shot (feat chain)

But, what it does do is allow a character using it to make a move-equivalent action and attack in a manner that could deal more damage than if that character didn't have the feat. I think Shot on the Run is more useful though, allowing for movement from a place of concealment to another while still attacking. Hence Manyshot is rarely the right option, unless that move-action is going to be used for something vital. It's a very debatable feat to take due to the circumstances that would make it a good option.

Why stacking the 2 would cause a problem I'm not sure (I haven't seen Greater Manyshot). A character would be much better off doing a fullattack than combining Shot on the Run and Manyshot.
I believe most of problem comes from good melee feats generally stacking and ranged ones not, with no reasonable explanation (apart from the rules say so).

 

[Thanee]

Rapid Shot totally owns Manyshot as soon as you do not absolutely need to move more than 5 feet (or have only a standard action available, like during surprise, or being transformed into a zombie (or slowed for a more realistic scenario )). And that's even before Improved Rapid Shot, Haste and whatnot.

Shot on the Run is also not the hottest feat around, I dare to say. It's nowhere near the usefulness of Spring Attack.

Bye
Thanee