Should 4th ed be point and level based?

[JoeGKushner]

Basically what I think could work would be a system that is, at its core, based around skill points and feats. You automatically get a bit of attack bonus, save bonus, and maybe AC bonus per level -- the so-called "Dude Factor," where even weaklings know a bit about being cool if they're high enough level.

But for many things, there shouldn't be a "Dude Factor". Having things like attack, save, and AC go up automatically means that even the mage will eventually be better than a low level fighter and unless it uses a seperate system for NPCs, we'd have the same problem for experts that we do today in terms of them being able to take and potetentially dish out a lot of damage bsed on merely the "Dude Factor".

 

[MerricB]

Should D&D use point buy?

Definitely not.

One of the most wonderful things about D&D is how balance can be achieved over (a) a certain level and (b) over the entire lifetime of the class.

Creating the abilities of a class or a prestige class not only relates abilities to the proper level but to the abilities gained at other levels. The interrelationship between the abilities is complex, and creates the balance. Point buy sacrifices all of that on the altar of "choice".

Consider the Warlock's Eldritch Blast ability. This is a 1/round touch ability. Then consider the impact of the Warlock having a Fighter's attack progression rather than the Wizard's. In fact, it is nowhere as significant. The Fighter BAB is more significant to the Fighter because they have the special abilities to back it up (bonus feats, etc.) To the Warlock, it doesn't increase the number of attacks per round with their primary ability, nor does it significantly increase their chance to hit.

Another example would be with the Incarnate. The skills they have as class skills are not (for the most part) skills they can increase with their soulmelds. There is a relationship there that point buy cannot grasp.

Costing abilities for point buy must always be conservative. You must always assume the min/maxer. The result is some abilities that are overcosted for most builds, although they would be thematically correct - and under the class system, would be granted to that class.

By conservative costing, I draw your attention to the Emotion spell of 3e. It had several abilities, which could be called a level 3 effect, a level 5 effect and a level 8 effect. To correctly cost it, you'd have to call it level 8... but by doing that, you make the level 3 and level 5 effect useless.

Although 3e doesn't have a point buy system as such, it does have a menu choice system (a weaker form of point buy), in the form of spells and feats. They are as close to point buy as I want to get.

Cheers!

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I think D&D should stay with its class-and-level-based system, for the simple reason that the game always has been about archetypes, and in my opinion that focus was what made it easy to understand and play, and is still a basic part of creating a character on the quick, which is something that takes at least twice as long with point-based systems I played so far (Shadowrun, L5R, don't ask about GURPS).

What I would love to see is the game sticking to one certain method of options. Where 3.5 stand at the moment, you have half a dozen different methods to create the exactly same character concept, and they are all handled as equally valid. Be it prestige classes, replacement levels, prestige races, templates, multiclassing, new base classes...it became redundant a long time ago.

If there's a new edition of D&D anytime soon, I hope they will lay a solid foundation of base classes, and then stick to one or two mechanisms of modifying those. That's my wish for any kind of 4E.

 

[jmucchiello]

One of the most wonderful things about D&D is how balance can be achieved over (a) a certain level and (b) over the entire lifetime of the class.

Creating the abilities of a class or a prestige class not only relates abilities to the proper level but to the abilities gained at other levels. The interrelationship between the abilities is complex, and creates the balance. Point buy sacrifices all of that on the altar of "choice".

This is the core concept of my class construction kit in Character Customization** and it is one of the best things about a class system that point buy systems just cannot handle. While you can compare one power to another and say how much each is worth in relation to the other, you cannot easily instill in such a system the power of two abilities which provide synergy for each other. This is always the problem with HERO/GURPS character constructions. Some combinations of powers are better than others. Even the D&D class system is exploitable by the power gamer. Imagine how much more exploitable it would be if it were point based.

** Yeah, yeah, I'm working on the revision. I can only say it will be out before 4th ed.

 

[Rasyr]

However, at some point, the sheer wealth of options must crumble around itself.

It did for Rolemaster.....

Would D&D be better off using levels as a tool in terms of how many feats, hit points and skills you can have, and using points to buy those things?

Do you mean something along the lines like HARP? Levels? yup. Classes? yup (well, professions anyway, and they amount to about the same thing). Point Buy? Development Points, yup. Seems to be what you are asking for/about, only more d20/D&D flavored.

 

[Sejs]

4th ed should be jelly bean based.


Because jelly beans are yummy.

 

[The Human Target]

It doesn't have to, but I would prefer a well done leveless (or even leveled but failry generic) pointbuy system. Thats just my gaming preference. I made a Shadowrun 4th Edition character yesterday and gloried in the cutomization, and it really isn't any more complicated than 3E character generation.

 

[Warbringer]

That actually would work in a way too, but I'm seeing some things even more free form. One of the great complaints against D&D for example, is that you can't just be a summoner like good old Elric. You automatically gain access to a whole host of other powers. You'd never core classes that were even more "generic" than those in Blue Rose or Unearthed Arcana.

Ok, so you're talking about a level system that lets you choose how many skill points this level, do I want to increase BAB or saves, do I want a feat etc. In effect, no classes, just levels?

 

[Gundark]

Hmmm. I like point buy systems. However as has been pointed out they tend to take a very long time at character creation. I like class systems as they define the roles of the group. Maybe it's my mmorpgism coming out in me, but I like the roles of the party to be clear...point buy systems those lines are blury. Also with the long character creation time there is pressure for the PCs to survive encounters that they really shouldn't. I know this sounds stupid, but I like it when there is an element of danger...if the character takes a long time to create there is the idea "man this guy better last me given the time I invested to create him". This may be overtly stated or implied, but it that pressure is there on both the GMs and Players parts. I like the idea of point buys...but it would be hard to control given min-maxing, also creation time would be a nightmare for new players. Not that this doesn't happen with class based systems...Spycraft 2.0 is a good example...wow it's taken our group a long time to make the guys.

 

[Umbran]

However, at some point, the sheer wealth of options must crumble around itself.

Would D&D be better off using levels as a tool in terms of how many feats, hit points and skills you can have, and using points to buy those things?

I don't know where peole get the idea that point-buy would simplify things. I'm pretty sure it'd have the opposite effect - instead of taking things in discrete packages, everything (and that's everything) becomes available a la carte. Where before you had some restrictions on what things go together, now there are no restrictions, and the number of different options goes up, rather than down.

Take every single ability of every Core and Prestige and Substitute class and every feat ever printed. Put a number on it, and dump it in a pile, and allow the players and GMs to try to sort through it all? This is less burdensome?

I can accept that such a system would be more flexible, but I don't see as it'd be any easier to work with, in terms of constructing characters.