Should a DM change an official NPC?

[Caliban]

My gaming group has been together for over 14 years now, and we play in the Forgotten Realms. We demand an authentic Forgotten Realms campaign. When we fight Drizzt, we want to fight the official Drizzt, not some 19 year old geek's version. When we travel to Cormyr, we might want to visit Arabel, not some pathetic town the DM saw on an episode of Xena. To my gaming group, we are not playing D&D, and not playing a Forgotten Realms campaign, unless we stick as closely as possible to the most current, official rules created by the owners of those products (WOTC.)

IMO, the moment a DM changes an NPC, you are no longer playing in the official WOTC provided campaign. You are now playing in the DMs home-brewed campaign. My gaming group has absolutely no interest in playing home-brewed campaigns. We have spent FAR too much money on our D&D and FR books to allow a DM deviate from them.

Another rule my gaming group follows is that the DM is not the final word on a subject. We prefer to use a much more democratic approach. If a rules question, or some other type of problem occurs, we take a vote. Majority wins, but the DM's vote counts as two votes, and all ties go to to the DM. We have followed this rule for 14 years, and have no plans on changing it. When you have a more democratic approach to problem-solving, it is more likely that all the players will abide by the rule, because everyone had a chance to be counted in the decision. If the DM in our campaign simply said "it's my way or the highway gentlemen" I can guarantee that my gaming group would immediately quit playing with that DM, and find someone else to replace him.

It sounds like your mind is already made up.

Why did you even ask our opinions?

I dub thee Troll.

(And I wouldn't want to play with your gaming group anyway. So there! )

 

[greymarch]

End the roleplaying session? So, if the DM comes up with a really cool NPC or really cool monster he can't use it? Homebrew doesn't necessarily mean EVERYTHING is made up.

Perhaps you are starting to see my point of view? When does a campaign become a home-brewed campaign? When do you stop playing FR, and start playing something else? If you make a few changes to a few NPCs, are you still playing FR? What if you make wholesale changes to everything? Are you still playing FR? The obvious answer is...your campaign is whatever you say it is! Well, my group has decided that a FR campaign is only a FR campaign if you play strictly by the books.

My gaming group came to the conclusion 14 years ago that you are not playing FR if you make any changes. Once you make a change, it is now a home-brewed campaign, and thus unnacceptable to us.

 

[greymarch]

Re: Re: Re: Yeah, but...

Oh? You've tried everything else, have you? You played in MY campaign, did you? Uh-huh.

You do realise that comments like this make it harder for people to take you seriously, don't you? Mark Chance expressed his opinion on FR, which is fair enough.

He expressed his opinion on FR, and I expressed my opinion on home-brewed campaigns. Both opinions are just as valid, because at heart they are just opinions and cannot be proven or disproven. I insulted your campaign? I am sure this thread is insulting to the writers at WOTC (some of whom read this site.) You will get over it, and so will the writers at WOTC.

 

[Tsyr]

My gaming group came to the conclusion 14 years ago that you are not playing FR if you make any changes. Once you make a change, it is now a home-brewed campaign, and thus unnacceptable to us.

Now, see, I couldn't enjoy this for fourteen years. I couldn't enjoy this for a year. It means your players have no real ability to control the world.

IE, you get a player up to a high level and go kill Drizzt (Hypothetical).

DM: Uh... you can't do that, Drizzt exists in this world, it would be homebrew if he died. So... uh... you killed another darkelf that just looked, acted, and thought he was Drizzt.

And you could never really feel like you were doing anything important. Daggerdale in trouble? Zombies comming out of the ground eating people? Eh, why bother saving it? It's not like the town could actualy be in any danger, unless WotC actualy removed it from the map if your group failed to save it. So obviously it's either not much of a problem, or someone else is gonna do it.

 

[greymarch]

(And I wouldn't want to play with your gaming group anyway. So there! )

Dont worry Caliban, I am not exactly firing up my email to ask you, even though I am from Phoenix, and you are from Mesa.

 

[Tsyr]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Yeah, but...

He expressed his opinion on FR, and I expressed my opinion on home-brewed campaigns. Both opinions are just as valid, because at heart they are just opinions and cannot be proven or disproven. I insulted your campaign? I am sure this thread is insulting to the writers at WOTC (some of whom read this site.) You will get over it, and so will the writers at WOTC.

Except, of course, that it's entirely possible to have read every single product WotC has put out, and even easier to have read every FR product out, and easier STILL to own every "current canon" FR product, wheras it is absolutely impossible to be familiar with everything else, which you were making a sweeping statement about.

 

[Grazzt]

Perhaps you are starting to see my point of view?

No, I'm not. I understand what you are saying, but I don't see your POV.

When does a campaign become a home-brewed campaign?

It becomes Homebrew the minute YOU or anyone else starts playing it. If there is a such thing as an "official" Realms campaign, unless you are in that group, then you are not playing the official Realms.

When do you stop playing FR, and start playing something else?

When you stop using stuff like Comyr, Elminster, Drizzt, etc.

If you make a few changes to a few NPCs, are you still playing FR?

Yes you are. As I said above, you may be playing in the Realms, but unless you are in some "officially" sanctioned group, it isn't official. It is YOUR version of the Realms. If your group follows all WotC material as canon, what happens if say, you guys are adventuring in say Waterdeep and WotC publishes a book that says Waterdeep is blown up by a marauding band of mind flayers. Completely obliterated. And you guys are in the middle of the city at the time doing something. Are your guys dead? Do you let Waterdeep survive?

What if you make wholesale changes to everything? Are you still playing FR? The obvious answer is...your campaign is whatever you say it is!

Maybe you are seeing my POV. YOUR campaign is whatever you make it. It doesnt matter if its the Realms, Greyhawk, Ravenloft, or a homebrewed campaign. Its all D&D. There is no official right way or wrong way to play it.

Well, my group has decided that a FR campaign is only a FR campaign if you play strictly by the books.

More power to you guys. I couldnt see playing something strictly buy the books. I cite my Waterdeep example above. And yes, I am wel aware that the chances of WotC blowing up Waterdeep are slim, but it was just an example. If they did, and your party was in it, what would happen? If you change it so Waterdeep doesn't blow up the minute the book is released, have you altered material? Are you playing FR anymore?

My gaming group came to the conclusion 14 years ago that you are not playing FR if you make any changes. Once you make a change, it is now a home-brewed campaign, and thus unnacceptable to us.

That's fine for your group. Not mine. We played GH back in 1982 when we started. We ran homebrews on the side as well. We played the Realms in 1987 when it first hit. We played in homebrewed worlds on the side.

We all decided, and my core group has been with me since 1982, that we liked the idea of creating our own game world and adventuring in there. Sure, everyone knows about how Drizzt did this, or Elminster did that....

but what about the time that Revilar the Paladin of Malishka jumped in front of a comrade to save him from the breath of a blue dragon? Don't know about it? It happened about 10 years ago (real time) in my world. The paladin died. His comrade lived. And 10 years later (real time again) we still remember it. Not from some book, not from something that TSR said happened, but from something we wrote and played.

We changed something in that encounter. There weren't really mechanics to handle diving in front of someone that was hit with a dragon's breath weapon in order to play a human shield. We made them up. We changed something. It was heroic, it added to the game, and it is something that none of us (including the player that sacrificed his character that nite) has forgotten. So, homebrew is bad? Playing anything but canon is bad? Nope, not from where I am standing, and not from where my players stand either.

 

[greymarch]

I enjoy reading this website for WOTC news. I started reading it like most people when it was Eric Noah's site. I also read the messageboards, although not as much as the WOTC boards, but I never realized the independent/anti-WOTC attitude of these messageboards. Thats ok though. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and each one is as valid as the other. I guess I shouldnt come here to chat about the value of "official" campaigns versus OGL campaigns, or "official rules clarifactions" versus home-brewed resolutions. It seems like the WOTC boards will provide better answers to such questions. I am going to post this very same topic at the official boards, and see what I get. I think the responses should be quite interesting.

Posting about WOTC at enworld.org is like posting a question about Jimmy Carter at the RNC messageboards. There is no point to it.

 

[Codragon]

Just to interject....

I think it's less fun when players know "everything" about a given campaign world. "Everything" meaning the NPC stats, monster stats, secret city locations, etc. The most fun I have as player is when I don't know where exactly I'm going, or the average hit points of the monster I'm fighting. Journeying into/fighting the unknown is a big part of what "adventure' is to me.

I guess what I'm saying is, do you (Greymarch) refer to the Monster Manual and FRCS as a player, in-game? Do you constantly "check-up" to make sure the DM is using the correct, official versions of all the NPCs and monsters? If so, that sounds less like a game and more like some sort of audit.

I'd go as far to say there's no such thing as an official FR campaign world. Each DM, whether he means to or not, adds some of his own personal flavor that make it different from the other FR campaigns out there. [edit: hey Grazzt, looks like you said the same thing] I would also say it's too much hassle and takes away from the fun of the game when you are constantly worrying about what is "official".

Another question: What happens when you play an "official" FR world and a new sourcebook comes out that contradicts what you've been doing in your campaign? For example, say I'm really detailing Myrkul and his temples in my FR world and then the Avatar crises novels come out and I have to kill off my beloved Myrkul. Ugh. Not my kind of fun. Myrkul would live on in my FR.

To each own though....

 

[Grazzt]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Yeah, but...

I am sure this thread is insulting to the writers at WOTC (some of whom read this site.) You will get over it, and so will the writers at WOTC.

I seriously doubt they find it insulting. Why? Because we don't accept the Realms as written or because there are those that chose to play their version of the Realms? I believe WotC knows this. I believe they are well aware of this fact, hence the reason sales are so good for FR stuff. Not everyone that buys an FR book plays it canon or follows the Realms "as written by WotC."

And ya know what? I don't think they care how you use their books or how you play the Realms? Why would they? They are a company. They are in the business to make money. And selling books makes money. So, once they get your sale, you can do with the book what you want: use it, burn it, throw it away, whatever. They made a sale and that is the bottom line.

Also- its not like the writers don't expect negative feedback. They know not everyone is gonna like all their stuff. It is impossible to write a book or make a product that 100% of the masses totally agree with. WotC knows this. They dont care. They dont have to.

Now, dont construe this as me saying they dont care about gamers, or this site, or anything like that. That is not what I am saying. All I am saying is that it is ok to deviate from what WotC wrote without offending them.

As has been pointed out, the books are all tools to do with as you wish. You wanna play canon, as is. Cool. Ya wanna take bits of this and bits of that and make your own world? Cool too. That's what Greenwood did way back in the 70's and 80's when he made the Realms and before TSR picked it up and published it. The Realms were a Homebrew campaign. The only official campaign at that time was Greyhawk.