Should Dungeon and Polyheadron be in the same magazine

[Arnwyn]

My first ever double post!

 

[Arnwyn]

As to why Paizo publishes Dungeon in color, there are a few reasons. One, of course, is that we can provide a higher quality reading experience of the magazine and a higher utility value to our consumers.

Ouch. Well, as a consumer, let me tell you that you are sadly, um..., "misguided" with regards to the above. Full color, for me, does not provide a higher utility value - quite the opposite, as a DM it has vastly decreased the utility of your magazine. The full color and glossy pages has resulted in the fact that I can no longer make notes on the pages or the maps, and the maps are more difficult to see and use during a session in comparison to b&w maps.

Now, I'm certainly in line with the first part of your reasons ("higher quality reading experience", aka "good aesthetics" aka "makes the DM go 'ooh, pretty'"), but the second part is horribly inaccurate, IMO.

Another reason has to do with the fact that a good portion of Dungeon's sales come from bookstores, where it has to compete on the shelf with electronic gaming magazines and a plethora of high gloss products. Also, Paizo does make some money selling advertising, and advertisers are more likely to place an add in a high-quality color magazine than a black and white, non-glossy periodical.

I would never argue with this.

The fact, though, that you're claiming full-color increases utility is unbelievably shocking.

 

[Beretta]

Ouch. Well, as a consumer, let me tell you that you are sadly, um..., "misguided" with regards to the above.

Mate, by saying it that way you sound as though you are representative of *all* Dungeon/Poly consumers. If he's "misguided" at all it's in reference to your personal preference. In fact that statement is, to me, pretty damned rude. As it happens his statements are correct in regards to my personal preference.

Full color, for me, does not provide a higher utility value - quite the opposite, as a DM it has vastly decreased the utility of your magazine. The full color and glossy pages has resulted in the fact that I can no longer make notes on the pages or the maps, and the maps are more difficult to see and use during a session in comparison to b&w maps.

I look at my collection of Dungeon Mags which spans from #001 to #109 and I can tell you that for me, Dungeon is far better now in full colour than it ever was in b&w with that god-awful staple binding. I don't write in the module; I write in an accompanying lecture-pad. I don't have a problem in cross-referencing any changes I have made with my notepad.

The maps are difficult to see? Not for me. Perhaps the issue is to do with either the lighting or your eyesight? I find the maps to be clear, legible, and a whole lot more interesting now than in the days of b&w.

Now, I'm certainly in line with the first part of your reasons ("higher quality reading experience", aka "good aesthetics" aka "makes the DM go 'ooh, pretty'"), but the second part is horribly inaccurate, IMO.

I would never argue with this.

The fact, though, that you're claiming full-color increases utility is unbelievably shocking.

Not everybody is the same as you, Arnwyn. I don't think Paizo have pulled these statements out of thin air. I am certain that they have done the research, and read threads like this one which crop up every other month on ENWorld and other D&D-related boards. I would say that their opinion is undoubtedly informed and based on the opinions of the larger proportion of Dungeon/Poly readers.

I doubt they would make those changes otherwise.

Don't get me mistaken; I too have my own dislikes about the magazine. I don't like Polyhedron, although there have been some exceptions - particularly when it crossed over to D&D or else D20 SW/D20 Modern. I would rather have it there than have no magazine at all, however.

I was also happy with two long adventures in the monthly format. We got 4 adventures or so in the bi-monthly publication, so we got two in the monthly publication, which amounts to the same amount of content in 2 months. What was it about that which people found difficult to understand?

I am disappointed to hear that more adventures of shorter length is what people want (and is what they're getting), so it is with relief that I read somewhere that some issues will have longer adventures; it will be these ones which I will look forward to the most.

It makes good business sense to go with the popular opinion of the majority of readers. It's just unfortunate for me that I am in the minority.

So for as long as Dungeon continues to publish quality adventures (which it is doing now more-so than it did from issues #01 to #68, in my opinion), then I will continue to buy it whether it is in colour, b&w, has Poly attached/unattached, or the adventures are long/short.

For me, the continued publishing of useful/quality adventures for a reasonable price is what will keep me buying issues of Dungeon.

 

[TeaBee]

I recently renewed my Dungeon/Poly subscription for 3 years.

If Paizo's existance was to make me happy, Poly and Dungeon would be 2 magazines, both of which I'd subscribe to. Heck, there could be even more magazines:

1) D&D crunch n' fluff
2) D&D adventures
3) Star Wars, Call of Cthulu, Wheel of Time, d20 Modern, etc. crunch n' fluff
4) Star Wars, Call of Cthulu, Wheel of Time, d20 Modern, etc. adventures
5) New mini games
6) New mini game adventures (support for past mini games)
7) RPGA crunch n' fluff
8) RPGA adventures

Dragon is curently 1, where Dungeon/Poly is curently 2-5, and 7. Maybe we've seen 6 before, but it isn't coming to my mind, so at the very most it isn't often. And I think I heard something about 8 maybe happening in Dungeon/Poly sometime in the future, but it'd likely be a one time thing, I think.

When I lay it out like that, it's amazing tp think that they make anybody happy with Dungeon/Poly, isn't it? It's trying to be five to seven diferent magazines, and doing a pretty good job at it.

When I see a thread like this, I think about posting or not. I know my voice is heard, but I'm not irate and calling things a PoS, and the squeeky wheel gets the grease.

This time around I can't really think of a fantastical solution, which I usually do, which turns out to be completely unfeasable. So, I'll recycle a previous one.

The idea: 1 month Dungeon, 1 month Polyhedron. Subscribe to monthly or bi-monthly (your choice of Dungeon or Polyhedron).

It's one magazine, with a different name alternating on the cover, where people can get full or "half" subscriptions. (Core Ethos Sentence for my Clash of the Periodicals Fantasy Setting submission )

Okay, so can someone remind me of the hundred reasons why this is a stupid idea that can't work? Thanks in advance, I'll think of a better stupid idea to contribute next time.

 

[kamosa]

Belen said:
>>>
I know too much about publishing.
>>>

You don't have a very good grasp on how we do business, unfortunately. Our rates for a full-color ad are considerably more expensive than $900 per page. Advertisers _will_ pay more for color. A color magazine _will_ get better distribution (on average), which means it's getting to more stores. Further, there's a lot of evidence that a consumer is more likely to purchase a color magazine once he's got it in his hands.

A good number of things are going to change with Dungeon over the next year. I can assure you that it will _NOT_ be going to black and white. If that's the dealbreaker for you, I'm afraid to say that you'll probably not be coming back to the magazine any time soon.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon Magazine

EDIT: An editor ought to be able to catch its/it's, eh?

Nice attitude. Not only did you misrepresent/misunderstand what he said, you acted like a jerk to him. That is the second time this thread you've come out and slammed people. I can't understand how a representative of a company can think it is good business to slam people, even when they are wrong. Compare that to Keith who answered questions without the attitude and seemed to want to listen to what people had to say.

After reading his posts I was willing to give Dungeon another chance, but after seeing this I don't think I will. It's this kind of customer be damned attitude that has put you guys in the place you are where people are posting long threads about how much you suck. You're attitude tells me nothing is going to change and these "changes" just another attempt to scam dollars out of our pockets without really delivering what we want.

 

[SoulsFury]

Nice attitude. Not only did you misrepresent/misunderstand what he said, you acted like a jerk to him. That is the second time this thread you've come out and slammed people. I can't understand how a representative of a company can think it is good business to slam people, even when they are wrong. Compare that to Keith who answered questions without the attitude and seemed to want to listen to what people had to say.

After reading his posts I was willing to give Dungeon another chance, but after seeing this I don't think I will. It's this kind of customer be damned attitude that has put you guys in the place you are where people are posting long threads about how much you suck. You're attitude tells me nothing is going to change and these "changes" just another attempt to scam dollars out of our pockets without really delivering what we want.

I second this.

Nik

 

[woodelf]

I personally loved Ares section, but that was all for TSR games also.

Not at all, Traveller and Twilight: 2000 immediately spring to mind as regularly-appearing in the Ares section (and then in the magazine in general once the segregated Ares section was eliminated).

Now, for me, the one thing that i never thought was worth anything in Dragon was adventures, so i was glad when they spun off a separate magazine (Dungeon) to put those in, so they'd never again "waste" space in Dragon. I'd rather not have them in Polyhedron, either, but i only buy Polyhedron now and then, at the store, when there's an interesting mini-game.

Oh, and for the person asking about reading habits: if i'm interested enough in a magazine to subscribe, i'll read everything in it. So, yes, when i had subscriptions to Newsweek, Discover, Omni, Scientific American, or other magazines, i literally read every article in them. I have no idea why, but i even read the sports articles in Newsweek, despite having slightly less than 0 interest in sports, generally. But i'd never even pick up a copy of Sports Illustrated (i've learned from enough boring waiting rooms that i'll literally be less bored staring at the wall than reading an article in there). Likewise, when i bought Dragon (~16yrs, 14 of those as a subscriber), i read every article, every letter, every editorial, in the magazine--heck, i even read all the ads that were for RPGs. It didn't matter if i played the game the article was nominally for, or knew the system, or had even heard of the game--i read it, and enjoyed it, and got lots of useful bits out of it. Well, with the exception of adventures. Usually enjoyable to read, but I think i've used exactly one, and scavenged bits from exactly none--i've gotten more game use out of the fiction than out of the adventures.

 

[woodelf]

As to why Paizo publishes Dungeon in color, there are a few reasons. One, of course, is that we can provide a higher quality reading experience of the magazine and a higher utility value to our consumers. Another reason has to do with the fact that a good portion of Dungeon's sales come from bookstores, where it has to compete on the shelf with electronic gaming magazines and a plethora of high gloss products. Also, Paizo does make some money selling advertising, and advertisers are more likely to place an add in a high-quality color magazine than a black and white, non-glossy periodical.

I can't argue with the advertising reason--if you say so, i'll believe it. As for bookstore presence--wouldn't the cover mostly handle this? It seems to me that, if someone picks it up to flip through, they're not likely to buy it unless they play RPGs, and if they play RPGs they're not likely to put it back just because it's B&W interior. You may be competing with videogame magazines for shelfspace, but i don't think you're competing for marketshare--even those that play both more than likely want different things out of the magazines devoted to them.

As for the "higher quality reading experience": says you. First, glossy pages are often harder to read in a lot of locations due to glare issues. Second, color pages are either no easier to read, or harder to read, than B&W pages, for reasons of contrast and use of artwork. Third, given we're talking about a magazine full of adventures intended to be used in a game, having non-glossy pages that can be easily written on (and erased) is a huge plus, and having B&W pages that can be easily photocopied is perhaps an even bigger plus. If i can't easily write in the margins (because they're glossy and/or full of art), and i can't easily photocopy the pages (to hand out and/or to write on), you've made the adventure much less-easily used. So, while i'll accept that color is necessary, and that this in turn makes glossy stock necessary, i can't buy that it's because of serving the reader. It sounds like other economic factors are to blame, and it is despite the readers' wishes, not because of them, that Dungeon is full-color.

 

[woodelf]

Nice attitude. Not only did you misrepresent/misunderstand what he said, you acted like a jerk to him. That is the second time this thread you've come out and slammed people. I can't understand how a representative of a company can think it is good business to slam people, even when they are wrong. Compare that to Keith who answered questions without the attitude and seemed to want to listen to what people had to say.

After reading his posts I was willing to give Dungeon another chance, but after seeing this I don't think I will. It's this kind of customer be damned attitude that has put you guys in the place you are where people are posting long threads about how much you suck. You're attitude tells me nothing is going to change and these "changes" just another attempt to scam dollars out of our pockets without really delivering what we want.

Huh? Having read Belen's followup to Erik Mona's post, where he clarifies what costs he was quoting, it sounds like Erik understood pretty well, and answered appropriately/accurately. And i'm still missing the "attitude", after having read your response, and gone back and re-read Erik's post twice more (as well as those aronud it). He answered the questions, and didn't beat around the bush. He was straitforward and honest: he said they've done some research, made a decision based on this, gave the reasons, and it's simply not reversible. He even had the class to admit that the change suggested (B&W) wasn't possible, and that anybody who wouldn't be satisfied unless that change was implemented would therefore not be satisfied with the product--rather than sidestepping the issue, or trying some sort of hard sell to convince those in that camp that they were "wrong" about their tastes. And he did so without at any point calling Belen names, or implying he was a dumb-ass for wanting what he wanted, or anything of that sort.

So, what did you read that i missed? What's so inflamatory/disrespectful in Erik's post? I'm genuinely baffled.

 

[Ranger REG]

I recently renewed my Dungeon/Poly subscription for 3 years.

If Paizo's existance was to make me happy, Poly and Dungeon would be 2 magazines, both of which I'd subscribe to. Heck, there could be even more magazines:

3) Star Wars, Call of Cthulu, Wheel of Time, d20 Modern, etc. crunch n' fluff
4) Star Wars, Call of Cthulu, Wheel of Time, d20 Modern, etc. adventures

Just so you know, before Paizo acquired the periodical department from WotC, WotC did try to start up a Star Wars gaming magazine, but after 10 issues, they canceled it due to low sales turnout.

Paizo is trying to include many articles for Star Wars in Poly but it only have so much pages to work with.