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Should girls be allowed to play fighter characters

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mmu1

First Post
Majere said:
I 100% believe that a well trained female soldier can be 100% as effective as a male one, but I dont believe that a male soldier can be 100% efective while he is fighting along side her. However in isolated roles, as pilots, special forces, snipers. Or as officers in non combat roles, in the artillary, on ships and so forth, they are fine soldiers.

The US army, which had to lower standards after boot camp was sexually integrated to the point where some men actually complained it was not challenging enough, compared to what they expected, and the USMC, which has separate boot camps for each sex with different standards don't agree with you.

The US Navy ran tests comparing the two genders' performance in damage control drills, and the bottom line was that anything that the weaker men couldn't do without training (carrying mock casualties, moving heavy firefighting equipment up and down stairs) the majority of female sailors couldn't do regardless of training.

Recent conficts are quickly proving that the idea of "non-combat roles" in the military is nonsense that gets people killed. Jessica Lynch's convoy, which was filled with people who "Only joined the Army to be.... (something other than a soldier)", anyone?
 
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Dark Jezter

First Post
Majere said:
However in isolated roles, as pilots, special forces, snipers. Or as officers in non combat roles, in the artillary, on ships and so forth, they are fine soldiers.

Combat positions such as special forces and snipers are both jobs that have very high physical requirements. They require near-olympian degrees of conditioning, which includes having very high endurance, strength, and the ability to carry heavy loads over long distances. Most men can't even complete the training, and because of this, it's extremely unlikely that women will be allowed in SpecOp roles unless the physical requirements were drastically lowered, which would make the Special Forces not-so-special after all.

Contrary to what you might think, snipers do not just set up in a hidden spot and pick people off all day long. The USMC Scout/Snipers must be extremely physically fit, as their missions often involve them moving hidden across many miles, belly-crawling for long distances, going days or even weeks alone in the field, et cetera. It's a job that pushes the scout/sniper to the limits of his endurance, and the same reasons for excluding females from Special Forces also applies to scout/snipers.
 

William Ronald

Explorer
I think Rule 0 is a very important tool for DMs. It allows DMs to shape the rules to their campaign settings, and can help create a sense of flavor. Certain cultures in a campaign setting may have strong limitations on gender roles. A DM has a right to determine what to allow and disallow in a game.

However, I would not disallow a female fighter as a character or a female player from playing a fighter character of either gender. Certain societies may have social prejudices against such characters, which is something the player will lilely see the character encountering in game. (Possibly a character might have a goal of changing societal attitudes. Or she may hide her true gender with a disguise -- something that has happened in the real world.) For myself, I would want a good campaign-based explanation why a character of a given gender cannot pursue a given character class. in some of the games that I have played in, I have seen some effective female warriors. There are also many mythic, legendary, and historic archetypes for female warriors of all sorts.

If a DM just gives a chauvinistic response as to why a female player can't play a female warrior, then I would advise a player to seek another DM. Or to start a new game.

I seem to recall that at least one French noblewoman joined the Crusades, and their are other historical examples. Whle these examples were often exceptional, I think it is wise to remember that player characters are generally considered to be exceptional individuals.

Although women may tend to be less physically strong than men, there are exceptions. Also, the humans of a fantasy setting may or may not follow the same standards of our own world. In some campaigns, human characters might have some ancestors who were not necessarily human. So the humans of Oerth in the World of Greyhawk setting may differ slightly from the real world. (A belief in divine ancestry, or descent from some supernatural or remarkable creature, is fairly common in ancient literature as well as many ancient beliefs. I seem to recall that the founder of one of the ancient Greek city states was described as having the lower body of a dragon. Many of the characters in the Illiad claimed descent from the gods. Similar figures can be found in other cultures and in fiction -- thus giving enough in game reasons for female PCs to be equal to their male counterparts in strength and stamina.) Real life differences between the sexes may not necessarily exist in a magical world.

Ultimately, a DM decides what to allow in a game. However, I think it is a wise DM who considers the requests and interest of players. A good roleplaying campaign is ultimately a collaborative effort, where players and DMs both enjoy themselves. So, while I support the use of Rule 0 by DMs, I think it is a good idea for DMs to explain why they have made a decision on a given issue. Then the players can decide to either abide by the ruling, challenge it, or chose to leave the group.

I think we need to be a bit careful on this thread to avoid real life political or religious debates to avoid having the thread closed. (If you want to carry on such debates, I recommend going to Nutkinland. Additonally, although I strongly suspect that the original poster was a troll, this thread has sparked some interesting discussions -- which makes this a valuable thread.
 

Angcuru

First Post
Majere said:
Imagine a soldier X is in relations with a soldier Y and soldier Y cheats on solider X with soldier Z. Clearly X and Z are NOT going to be able to fight together, hell, they might just kill each other instead of the army.
Situations like this are simply limitless, not to mention all the trust issues that come with suspicions of nepotism if there were relations between soldiers of differning rank.
A classic example of the slippery slope argument if I've ever seen one. :p

Majere said:
It is that much harder for a soldier to see a member of his unit killed if that member was his lover.
True. Ever heard of the Spartans? Part of the reason why they were such hard-core virtually invincible warriors on the battlefield was the fact that they were lovers. If the person next to you is your lover, you're going to fight a great deal harder than you would otherwise.
 
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Majere

First Post
Dark Jezter said:
Contrary to what you might think, snipers do not just set up in a hidden spot and pick people off all day long. The USMC Scout/Snipers must be extremely physically fit, as their missions often involve them moving hidden across many miles, belly-crawling for long distances, going days or even weeks alone in the field, et cetera. It's a job that pushes the scout/sniper to the limits of his endurance, and the same reasons for excluding females from Special Forces also applies to scout/snipers.

Contrary To what you may think, Im well aware of the job of a sniper. As has already been posted in this thread by another person. There have been female snipers before who were amply sucessful at their job.
I happen to studay with a young lady who runs the 10k for Great Britain, and further competes in triathlons. Im quite sure she could hack it with just about any endurance test you wanted to throw at her

While I might agree that less women can achieve this level of physical prowess Iwould stop short of saying no women could.

As for teh US dropping boot camp requirements, why ? Its a perfectly fair way to discriminate candidates for teh job of a soldier. If the woman cant compete withe the men, she shouldnt be a soldier.
Equality != favouring women

Majere
 

Majere

First Post
Angcuru said:
True. Ever heard of the Spartans? Part of the reason why they were such hard-core virtually invincible warriors on the battlefield was the fact that they were lovers. If the person next to you is your lover, you're going to fight a great deal harder than you would otherwise.

When your fighting with sword and shield yes, this might be a valid argument
But in modern warfare the chances are that the first thing you know about enemy contact is your friend being shot dead.
There isnt as much room for "fight harder" when your pulling a trigger rather than battering the other man to death with a lump of iron.
Or at least, not to the same extent

Majere
 

Sejs

First Post
I want to play a paladin, but he says that only guys can be paladins. Help is that true?

Pick up the Player's Handbook, open it to the paladin class entry and show your DM the picture of the female paladin iconic character. If he continues to try and say that girls can't be paladins, whomp him upside the head with said PHB. Then push him down and rifle thru his wallet.
 

Dark Jezter

First Post
Majere said:
Contrary To what you may think, Im well aware of the job of a sniper. As has already been posted in this thread by another person. There have been female snipers before who were amply sucessful at their job.
I happen to studay with a young lady who runs the 10k for Great Britain, and further competes in triathlons. Im quite sure she could hack it with just about any endurance test you wanted to throw at her

Does this young lady have the ability to:

Consistantly hit targets with a rifle at ranges of over 600 yards?

Run 3 miles in 18 minutes?

Do 20 deadhang pull-ups (no swinging)?

Do 100 sit-ups in 2 minutes?

Swim 500 meters using side stroke or breast stroke?

Swim 50 meters while holding a weight out of the water, and tread water for 30 seconds while holding a weight out of the water, without showing any signs of panic?

Remain absolutely still for hours at a time, despite discomfort caused by heat, muscle cramping, and insect bites?

Those are all requirements to be a USMC scout/sniper, who are generally regarded as the best military snipers in the world.
 

BASHMAN

Basic Action Games
Female Characters

Two words: Jean D'Arc. A REAL LIFE female paladin (knight of the church).

As to whether the GM is sexist or not, It may have something to do with the campaign setting being sexist, as it would be if it were based on a more historical earth setting. Actually, I am surprised the GM would allow female clerics given that situation though. Who knows, maybe this is an Arabian nights campaign setting-- and the GM is trying to stress the gender restrictions within the culture.

Personally, my campaign world is similar to historical earth-- but this does not proscribe female warriors from exhistance: merely makes them a rarity. I.E. a major NPC, Duke Sauvage's daughter, Epinista (the word roughly translates to "sword") is well known as a brilliant tactitian and able warrior-- the equal of nearly any man. However, about 99% of the time, she wears a dress like the other 99% of noble women, because of societal norms (she also happens to be engaged to the Prince of the country, so she needs to maintain her image as a lady).

Actually, the story of a female overcoming sexism can make for a very compelling character. In OD&D Mystarra, there is a country called Thyatis (similar to Rome) where female warriors are discouraged-- until they achieve third level. Then, they are given even more respect for overcoming adversity.
 

Ssyleia

First Post
If girls can't be fighters, how come there's chainmail bikinis?

OKOK - Then again, perhaps I don't wanna have that one answered ;-)
 

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