Should I upgrade from GURPS 3rd Edition, to 4th?

[Azlan]

I'm starting a new campaign, using GURPS. It's been nearly a decade since I last gamemastered using GURPS. I've been DM'ing, using D&D 3.0/3.5, for the past five years, and before that, I had taken a long break from role-playing gaming altogether. This new campaign will be set on a fantasy Renaissance world, but one that is much more grim and gritty than what D&D facilitates. Thus the need to switch to GURPS. (Please do not try to convince me here to switch to some other role-playing system for this. I've already made up my mind.)

I already own a lot of GURPS 3rd Edition books, including the core rulebook, the two Compendiums, GURPS Magic, and GURPS Fantasy.

(Note, hereafter I'll refer to 3rd and 4th Editions as 3E and 4E, respectively.)

I've been doing a lot of research on the new 4E, and I'm thinking of upgrading to that. (Eventhough it will be a costly endeavor.) In fact, I've already bought the 4E GURPS Magic, if only because my old 3E GURPS Magic book (softbound) is worn and falling apart, and because the new one is hardbound and handily color-coded; and because I had heard that very little has changed between 3E and 4E where magic is concerned, so this new book will be useful to me whether I upgrade to 4E or not.

One of the things that bothers me about the new edition is the changes in costs for ability scores...

- In 3E, the costs for ST, DX, IQ, and HT were all the same. In 4E, DX and IQ cost twice as much as ST and HT. This change sounds reasonable for campaigns set in a modern-day world or near-abouts, where ST and HT are less important than DX and IQ. But is this a reasonable change for campaigns set in a medieval world? Since my campaign is going to be set in a medieval/renaissance world, I wonder if it's a good idea to have DX and IQ cost twice as much as ST and HT?

- In 3E, the cost for an ability score was 10 points per increase; until a score was increased past 13, where the cost was 15 points per increase; until a score was increased past 15, where the cost was 20 points per increase. But now the cost is completely linear, e.g. ST costs 10 points per increase, and DX costs 20 points per increase, no matter how far you increase it. This change sounds good for a super-powered hero campaign, but not so good for other campaigns – even for a heroic fantasy campaign – with more down-to-earth characters.

What is your impression with this? And if you've played both 3E and 4E GURPS, how have these changes worked out for you?

 

[Henry]

I do not own GURPS 4, I've only been keeping up with the changes, but...

- In 3E, the costs for ST, DX, IQ, and HT were all the same. In 4E, DX and IQ cost twice as much as ST and HT. This change sounds reasonable for campaigns set in a modern-day world or near-abouts, where ST and HT are less important than DX and IQ. But is this a reasonable change for campaigns set in a medieval world? Since my campaign is going to be set in a medieval/renaissance world, I wonder if it's a good idea to have DX and IQ cost twice as much as ST and HT?

I think it's a good change, because skill-wise, DX and IQ count so much more than ST and HT, based on the way skills work. One thing that used to bug me about GURPS 3 were the people who would buy up as high a DX and IQ as they dared, and only spend about 10 skill points to get these ridiculously high skill scores over about 20 different abilities (that 1/2 point goes a LONG way!) DX and IQ are the defaults for 80% or more of the skills, so that they cost more as stats is a more reasonable assumption, IMO.

- In 3E, the cost for an ability score was 10 points per increase; until a score was increased past 13, where the cost was 15 points per increase; until a score was increased past 15, where the cost was 20 points per increase. But now the cost is completely linear, e.g. ST costs 10 points per increase, and DX costs 20 points per increase, no matter how far you increase it. This change sounds good for a super-powered hero campaign, but not so good for other campaigns – even for a heroic fantasy campaign – with more down-to-earth characters.

Considering that the only benefit to this is that ST and HT will be higher on GURPS 4 beginning characters, I don't see it as a bad thing. The base point pool is 100 points; people will not be getting as high a DX and IQ as they used to, due to cost, preferring to put those points now into the cheaper skill purchase option. The only time it will matter is when dealing iwth games starting higher than 100 points; these games are defined as "super-heroic" in GURPS anyway, especially over 250 point pools. So your average 100-point GURPS character in 4E might have a 13 or 14 DX, a 12 or 13 IQ, a 11 or 12 ST or HT, some disadvantages and spend the rest, whereas the GURPS 3 character might have a 16 or 17 DX, a few disadvantages, and a bunch of skills with 85% success rates.

 

[Azlan]

So your average 100-point GURPS character in 4E might have a 13 or 14 DX, a 12 or 13 IQ, a 11 or 12 ST or HT, some disadvantages and spend the rest, whereas the GURPS 3 character might have a 16 or 17 DX, a few disadvantages, and a bunch of skills with 85% success rates.

Really? A 13 or 14 DX in GURPS 4E will cost 60 or 80 points, respectively. That's an awful lot of points to put on one ability score, for a 100-point character. What I foresee is most 100-point characters in 4E having an 11 or 12 DX; that is, unless they're a rogue type.

Still, I can see the logic behind what you say, Henry. It makes me see that the change here, in 4E, is not as worrisome as I first thought.

 

[Azlan]

Okay, what about the changes in the combat system, between 3E and 4E?

Everyone seems to be saying the changes in the combat system are so much better, but from what I've seen (perusing the new rulebooks), the changes are not all that many or great; at least, not enought to warrant my forking out lots of money for new rulebooks.

Note: When gamemastering GURPS 3E, I used the basic combat system found in the core rulebook, along with some of the optional rules found therewithin, and did not bother with any of the additional rules found in the Compendiums or elsewhere. From what I understand, it's the mish-mash of additional rules from the Compendiums that was causing most of the grief with 3E.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I've GMed both GURPS 3e and GURPS 4e, and all in all I like the changes (except perhaps for the Giant Skill List of Doom...).

The attributes seem to work out just fine. Remember that purchasing phsical skills is now cheaper, so the incentive to get a high level of DX is not that great if you only need one or two DX-based skills at high levels.

As for the combat system, the changes are indeed not that big, but all the rules have been cleaned up and the inconsistencies removed. The whole system changes better, and there are also a few new things you can do with highly skilled characters (reducing your opponent's chances to defend himself, attempting to attack twice a round without an All-Out Attack, more rules for Extra Effort in combat...).

IMO, if you can afford it, the new edition is definitely worth picking up.

 

[Henry]

Really? A 13 or 14 DX in GURPS 4E will cost 60 or 80 points, respectively. That's an awful lot of points to put on one ability score, for a 100-point character. What I foresee is most 100-point characters in 4E having an 11 or 12 DX; that is, unless they're a rogue type.

In the old days, dumping everythng you can into DX and IQ was the way to go; you needed very little skill points per se if even on a bad default you got a 12 or higher.

As Jurgen says, though, if skills are cheaper too, then there's even less incentive to have high stats, and the problem takes care of itself. Kind of like the ingenuity I loved in D&D 3 in tying a paladin's bonuses directly to his CHA score instead of requiring a high CHA; players naturally want that high attribute not just to satisfy a requirement. It's similar logic, but in reverse; de-emphasize AND penalize higher attributes, and even with linear prices, you'll still see more organic scores on average.

 

[Azlan]

Please bear in mind that, when advising whether or not I should upgrade from GURPS 3E to 4E, that any changes in 4E made to better facillitate superhero characters/campaigns are totally useless to me; and in fact, may even be counter to what I'm wanting out of GURPS, here.

When I flipped through the GURPS 4E "Characters" book, which is a hefty volume indeed, I noticed that much of the material there seemed to be for superhero characters, more than anything else. As I flipped through the pages and pages of character advantages, disadvantages, enhancements, and limitation, I found myself thinking, "This seems way too much. This will merely serve to clutter things up, making character creation for my campaign more burdensome than it needs to be."

 

[Shadoglare]

When I flipped through the GURPS 4E "Characters" book, which is a hefty volume indeed, I noticed that much of the material there seemed to be for superhero characters, more than anything else. As I flipped through the pages and pages of character advantages, disadvantages, enhancements, and limitation, I found myself thinking, "This seems way too much. This will merely serve to clutter things up, making character creation for my campaign more burdensome than it needs to be."

Probably a good half of the skills and advantages aren't compatible with a "normal" character, and would only be good for characters who are supers, psionics, or have some other "otherworldly" power such as some type of "divine" power or of an alien nature.

The book makes this not so bad to dig through though due to the symbols - when your players are creating their characters you can just tell them something like "You can't take anything that has an alien or lightning bolt symbol."

Even if you have characters that can't use these, they could still likely come in handy for monsters, though.

 

[dvvega]

I know you don't want to be told about another system being better ... and you're set on GURPS, however my suggestion is related to the fact that you have been DMing D20 for 5 years.

Unearthed Arcana (which is Open Source and most of it is at http://www.d20srd.org/) has many variants that will do what you need with the d20 rules ...

Wound/Vitality points - the easiest way to make things grim/gritty.

Sorry to have taken up your time,
D

 

[EdL]

Ok, here's the real question that needs to be asked: What books do your players have? It's one thing for you to go out and buy a ton of stuff, but if they have (or feel the need) to as well...

But if you do go with 4E, remember that there's no rule that says you have to give the players 100 points to start with. If you feel that 125, or 150, or whatever, would work better, that's what you should give them.