D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[ECMO3]

All martials should have a speed boost, a movement feature, and a good melee weapon attack and good ranged weapon attack.

Why? If a player want these things why don't they build a martial that gets all these things?

Having or not having these things (ALL OF THESE THINGS) is a choice purposely made by player when they decide where to put ability scores and what options to take and it is pathetically easy on point buy or standard array to build a martial of any class that has all of these things.

If I CHOOSE not to have a good ranged attack or extra movement because I want other things more, then why should I get a good ranged attack and extra movement? If I want those things why wouldn't I CHOOSE the options that afford them?

 

[Micah Sweet]

The wizard focusing exclusively on fire spells is a super edge case. Wizards get plenty of spells, and t is not hard for a high level wizard to slot in one spell of a differing damage type (or even a control spell, which tend to be stronger anyway) so that if you encounter something fire immune you can still function.

Very few monsters have legitimate anti-magic. Many have magic resistance, but that only helps if the spell targets a strong save. If you have to save against a DC 18 but only have a +1 and advantage, odds are pretty good you will fail that save. Edge case.

As for hiding/ambushing, you just set the ready action to trigger as soon as you see the creature. What, the creature going to hide for over a minute? The casters' allies couldn't find it with 10 rounds of searching? Massive edge case; I've never even seen this in several decades of gaming. Hide and attack next round? Sure. Hide until a readied spell expires? Never.

Counterspell is why basically every wizard I've seen prepares Counterspell. NPC tries to counter your spell? Counter their Counterspell. So it really only works if you have more NPCs that can Counterspell than PCs, in which case you've arguably crafted that encounter specifically to counter the caster(s). I too can craft an encounter to foil any character. That proves nothing.

All of these are edge cases.

An argument for removing Counterspell altogether.

 

[Minigiant]

So 12 ASI/Feats spread across 20 levels? The Fighter in PF1 could have as many as 22 feats by the time they reach 20th level. 11 Combat feats at 1st and every even level after 2nd level + 10 general feats at every odd level +1 if the fighter in question was human. I don't think anyone here wants to bring back a feat bloat.

As for ASIs, most players will put their highest ability scores into STR, DEX and CON. Since 5e has put a cap on how any ability score can go, it wouldn't take very long before the Fighter maxes out on those three ability scores.

Fighters have 7 ASI. Even if you start with 2 16s and a 14, it takes all you ASI to max 3 scores. And then you have no feats.

Why? If a player want these things why don't they build a martial that gets all these things?

Because you can't.

The whole supernatural side of the argument is build upon the fact that you can't without the DM giving you magic items.

 

[Oofta]

The wizard focusing exclusively on fire spells is a super edge case. Wizards get plenty of spells, and t is not hard for a high level wizard to slot in one spell of a differing damage type (or even a control spell, which tend to be stronger anyway) so that if you encounter something fire immune you can still function.

Very few monsters have legitimate anti-magic. Many have magic resistance, but that only helps if the spell targets a strong save. If you have to save against a DC 18 but only have a +1 and advantage, odds are pretty good you will fail that save. Edge case.

As for hiding/ambushing, you just set the ready action to trigger as soon as you see the creature. What, the creature going to hide for over a minute? The casters' allies couldn't find it with 10 rounds of searching? Massive edge case; I've never even seen this in several decades of gaming. Hide and attack next round? Sure. Hide until a readied spell expires? Never.

Counterspell is why basically every wizard I've seen prepares Counterspell. NPC tries to counter your spell? Counter their Counterspell. So it really only works if you have more NPCs that can Counterspell than PCs, in which case you've arguably crafted that encounter specifically to counter the caster(s). I too can craft an encounter to foil any character. That proves nothing.

All of these are edge cases.

You asked for examples of times it's happened in my game, I gave them. I can't help if the wizard didn't have the correct spells readied, he didn't. The sorcerer NPC that had still spell or improved invisibility can't have their counterspell countered. it also assumes spell and reaction is available.

Readied actions? According to sage advice "A readied spell’s slot is lost if you don’t release the spell with your reaction before the start of your next turn." I used a fair number of aberrations in my last campaign, Beholders aren't the only monster with anti-magic zones.

These are all things that have happened in my games. A fighter without a magic weapon at mid to high levels? Never heard of it happening.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Fighters have 7 ASI. Even if you start with 2 16s and a 14, it takes all you ASI to max 3 scores. And then you have no feats.



Because you can't.

The whole supernatural side of the argument is build upon the fact that you can't without the DM giving you magic items.

I sure as heck can buy a bow and be good at weilding it.

 

[Corinnguard]

The whole supernatural side of the argument is build upon the fact that you can't without the DM giving you magic items.

How many magic items would it take to make a Fighter supernatural?

 

[mamba]

Reduction of hp across the board, on both sides (along with damage obviously) would go a long toward helping martials.

if you want gritty, drop the Con bonuses to HP for everyone (incl monsters), but keep the damage

 

[Crimson Longinus]

if you want gritty, drop the Con bonuses to HP for everyone (incl monsters), but keep the damage

At that point you might as well delete con as a stat though. Its sole function would be con saves, and that is not enough to warrant a whole ability score.

 

[Minigiant]

I sure as heck can buy a bow and be good at weilding it.

Not enough to deal enough damage to those bloated HP sponges in the MM and other books without specializing in archery.

 

[mamba]

At that point you might as well delete con as a stat though. Its sole function would be con saves, and that is not enough to warrant a whole ability score.

I am not opposed to that, keeping something around just for the sake of it is unnecessary.

I am just saying it is a quick way to get more gritty