SHould paladins powers be lost peicemeal?

[Guero Caballero]

Clerics and loss of spells

How often do you as a DM take away all the Cleric's spells? Probably pretty damn rare.

I've done it once, to a Red Knight cleric who insisted on stupid greediness and was either craven or stupidly brave in battle. I told him that he had become CN. Rather than atone, he switched dieties, and he (and I) were happier afterwards.

The paladin case, though is complicated by the LG aspect. If a paladin falls for misbehavior, there aren't too many more LG gods that'll take him, IMHO. The roleplaying rewards for such a scenario could be nice for the right group or campaign.

 

[DM_Matt]

Might I point out that there ARE other classes that can lose their powers as well. This is accounted for in game balance. Druids who fail to protect nature are stripped of its favor. Bards who turn lawful are drained of the power of their spontaneity. Why should paladins, who swear to follow a strict code set forth by the god who blesses them be exempt from this rule?
I, too am tired of moral relativism being forced upon every class. That's why there are alignments. The paladin is a bastion of absolutism, pure and simple. I do agree that the player and the DM should discuss the ins and outs of the paladin's code before the game begins, but judgment calls come up. That's part of the fun of playing a paladin.
Besides, redemption can be a fun quest.

Those shouldnt have alignment restrictions either. The idea that someone who is well-disciplined cannot be a good entertainer but someone who is not can is ludicrous. In many cases its the opposite.

Similarly, the idea that monks must be lawful contradicts several common fictional troupes, such as the lawful school vs chaotic school conflicts.

 

[LostSoul]

Read a book folks, the paladin LIVES AND DIES BY HIS MORAL AND ETHICAL CODE. [snip] But players who want all of the perks of a paladin with none of the restrictions should be horse whipped and branded!

I'm not saying that the Paladin should be played without a code, but that the code should be defined by the player. He should be able to decide when he's crossed the line.

The perks of a Paladin are nothing more than the perks of a Fighter or a Ranger. They're all balanced, unless the Paladin loses his abilities, in which case the Paladin is an unplayable class.

 

[LostSoul]

Might I point out that there ARE other classes that can lose their powers as well. This is accounted for in game balance.

Those classes have the same problems as the Paladin does, though they're not as bad.

Besides, redemption can be a fun quest.

Not when your PC is nothing more than a Warrior with d10 HD. On the redemption quest, the Fighter will do the fighting and the Cleric will do the smiting. Not much left for the Paladin.

 

[Aaron L]

AN INTeresting idea would be to make a table of what "Sins" would negate what paladin abilities, and it could act as a warning to the paladin. Paladin getting bloodthirsty? He can no longer smite evil, his eagerness to smite things is becoming sinful.

 

[Li Shenron]

In the killer paladin thread, a couple of people brought up that, by the RAW, paladin power loss is all or nothing. However, it seems that a lot of people favor removing one or two powers as a warning, or making some powers unreliable, etc.

How do you like to do it? Should a paladin lose just Detect Evil, or have his warhorse refuse to come until he atones for a transgression? Or is it all paladin all the time vs nothing?

I think the DM should be able to do it as she wants, so I voted for a gradual fall (as a possibility, not as a standard).

There are two risks with making gradual loss the norm:

1) a bad player may start thinking that he can play a Paladin who "sometimes" purposefully breaks the code, because after all he may get away with losing only 1-2 abilities before he needs to behave (especially if the DM takes away some of the minor abilities)

2) the DM is tempted to use this too often, because after all it's not such a penalty, instead of making the falling something "special"

Probably, removing ONE ability at a time is going to generate these problems. If you want to give a "warning" to a Paladin close to falling, perhaps I'd rather remove something like HALF of all his abilities, and still require a sort of important atonement (via RP at least).

 

[Numion]

I think that contemplating the minutiae of Paladin powers-yoinking shows a too great eagerness for the subject in a DM.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

I have done the selective removal before. For me it depends upon whether the paladin edges close to the line, takes a step over, or leaps across it.

The one time I did it I removed his immunity to disease and inflicted him with a pox.

I'm not saying that the Paladin should be played without a code, but that the code should be defined by the player. He should be able to decide when he's crossed the line.

The perks of a Paladin are nothing more than the perks of a Fighter or a Ranger. They're all balanced, unless the Paladin loses his abilities, in which case the Paladin is an unplayable class.

I beleive it should be defined by the player and the DM working together. The player should make a proposed code, the DM can make adjustments, the player can negotiate etc. hopefully until they come to a mutual agreement of the code. It is then up to the DM (in the role of the paladin's deity) to compare the character's actions to the code. Yes, it gives the DM a lot of power over the character, but hopefully the player and DM can work together to keep it all playable.

This is why I am in favor of the selective power removal. It gives a way in game for the DM to initate a conversation about what might be outside of acceptable behavior by the code.

My player in the case above, upon realizing what was happening, took a day to pray. He received a vision that showed him what behaviors were frowned upon. The paladin asked forgiveness, and after the game the player and I discussed the boundaries of his characters actions as I saw it. We worked it out so that I was a little less strict in my interpretation of the code and we better defined what turned out to be a grey area.

 

[Jupp]

I played a Paladin for several years in an old 2e campaign and when I think about it, our DM should have put me down to normal fighter about 4 or 5 sessions after character creation But then, I was young, innocent and I needed the XP If I would play a Paladin again today I would insist that my DM would go strictly by the rules. It would also make for some interesting side quests to get back to full power or die trying.

 

[J-Buzz]

I think that it is all or nothing. I would have another paladin or cleric hear of the paladins deeds and warn him verbally before taking any powers.

They would have to atone each time they were warned as well. However the atonement would not be as harsh as when they are fallen.