Should Power Source have greater meaning?

[MrBeens]

Probably. Plus, they should probably also reduce the number of sources: Martial, Arcane, Divine, Psionic, Primal, and Artifice should be enough.

Err, isn't that the current number of sources except you have left out shadow and added one of your own?

 

[delericho]

artifice can't be called a power source.

Sure it can. They can basically call anything they want a power source, and artifice is as good a one as any.

Artifice isn't currently a power source; doesn't mean it couldn't be.

Err, isn't that the current number of sources except you have left out shadow and added one of your own?

According to my PHB, there are also: Shadow, Ki, and Elemental.

 

[Zaphling]

Sure it can. They can basically call anything they want a power source, and artifice is as good a one as any.

Artifice isn't currently a power source; doesn't mean it couldn't be.



According to my PHB, there are also: Shadow, Ki, and Elemental.

Artifice is too narrow to become one, the only archetype that can go with it is engineer and alchemist.

 

[delericho]

Artifice is too narrow to become one, the only archetype that can go with it is engineer and alchemist.

I noted three in my previous post: the Alchemist, the Eberron-style Artificer, and the steampunk-style Mad Scientist.

In addition, there's actually no reason the power source should be tied only to those who create the items - such a power source could easily cover a character such as Jarlaxle, who has merely collected a huge range of trinkets during his time, and so always has something on hand.

Even Elric might conceivably be considered to draw his power from this source, given that most of his power (almost all in the first stories) actually comes from Stormbringer. (And from comics, both Batman and Iron Man are in much the same boat.)

There's even a distinctive place for it mechanically: whereas most power sources only allow for a small amount of retraining, the Artifice source could conceivably allow the player to swap out many (or even all) of his powers every adventure, as he gets rid of some items and replaces them with others.

 

[MrBeens]

Sure it can. They can basically call anything they want a power source, and artifice is as good a one as any.

Artifice isn't currently a power source; doesn't mean it couldn't be.



According to my PHB, there are also: Shadow, Ki, and Elemental.

They dropped Ki ages ago, and as of this moment there are no Elemental power source classes.
I find it very strange that you are arguing that they should "reduce the number of sources" to the same number there currently is by replacing an existing one with something that you have totally made up.

 

[Zaphling]

They dropped Ki ages ago, and as of this moment there are no Elemental power source classes.
I find it very strange that you are arguing that they should "reduce the number of sources" to the same number there currently is by replacing an existing one with something that you have totally made up.

True true, plus the so called made up Artifice source is already covered by a single class: Artificer?

Batman's gadgets are just weapons which your common rogue can have. Bat shuriken, sleeping gas, what nots. They can be bought. Don't need a source for it. In fact, the best 'power source' for artifice is the smithy, potions shop, magic shops, and even your local tavern.

 

[delericho]

They dropped Ki ages ago, and as of this moment there are no Elemental power source classes.
I find it very strange that you are arguing that they should "reduce the number of sources" to the same number there currently is by replacing an existing one with something that you have totally made up.

Indeed. It appears I made a mistake. FWIW, the initial version of my post didn't include Psionic or Primal, but before I posted I reconsidered these.

I don't think the Shadow source really offers much that couldn't be handled by Arcane or Divine sources. But, honestly, I don't actually care all that much. I do think the Artifice source offers quite a bit, and should be added.

 

[KidSnide]

Shared power pools would go a long way in the right direction. But I think power source should also share some common mechanics.

They already do (or did). There are no Martial Implement powers, for instance, and, in the PH, virtually no arcane weapon powers. Divine Implement powers are likely to be a holy symbol. Divine tends toward radiant, Primal towards 'elemental' keywords, Psionic toward psychic, Arcane towards force (and, really, a vast vareity), and Martial towards, again, weapons.

I suppose I should have said more common mechanics, as yes, I mentioned martial weapon powers and the divine use of radiant damage in this thread:

I think that WotC did an OK (but hardly great) job at giving power sources their own flavor. The prevalence of radiant power in the divine power source is an obvious example, as is the dominance of weapon attack powers in the martial power source. Most of the primal classes have a transformation theme, and psionic classes... umm... well, the divine power source is a good example.

But, you could embrace and deepen those distinctions, as long as you don't cross the line and start gimping or overpowering one source or another.

For example, maybe the martial power source is marked by using stances and tricks instead of at-will powers. And maybe Daily powers are mostly replaced by constant bonuses, a small number of big-hits, some special stances, and "tactics" - daily powers with an extra benefit if initiated before the encounter begins (e.g. a warlord-style strategy that can either be explained ahead of time, or improvised mid-battle).

A perfect example of crossing that line.

Maybe the arcane power source is marked by having more daily powers than usual?

Another fine example.

Really, you're not talking about refining or expanding the use of Sources, you're talking about returning to the imbalances and stereotypes of prior editions.

Oh, come on... I'm not suggesting that these are the only changes I'd make. Of course it also has to be balanced.

If the classes all have "meatier" class abilities, more daily powers (or access to stronger ones) could be a characteristic of at least some of the arcane classes. Replacing daily powers with static bonuses for martial classes is just describing essentials. Warlord daily powers that provide a greater benefit if you use the plan before combat? That's something you could do today.

When the designers were working on 4e, they didn't start with the grasp on the power system that they have today. As the essentials design shows, the underlying rules mechanics for 4e is capable of generating a set of classes with a more classic D&D feel than they managed in PH1. Power sources are a good medium for this because they represent a collection of common characteristics of the in-game reality, that should be reflected by the rules mechanics.

Martial powers could be less "spell-like" if the designers strictly limit themselves to plausible non-magical effects, and aren't as free-form with player-based narrative control as an explanation. Stances and powers that trigger off basic attacks are another good idea in this direction.

You can also alter arcane powers to get something closer to the old magic-user feel. Maybe more arcane daily powers should have a "disruptable" keyword that means they trigger an opportunity attack from adjacent enemies that -- if it hits -- the daily power is lost? (Obviously, not every arcane class can have this characteristic, at least if we want swordmages to use these powers...)

It's just drawing a tighter connection between the rules mechanics and the in-game reality.

-KS

 

[delericho]

True true, plus the so called made up Artifice source is already covered by a single class: Artificer?

Alchemist
Artificer
Mad Scientist
Mountebank (Jarlaxle)
Soul-bound (Elric - and yes, I know that's a rubbish name)

Besides, even with just the Artificer, the potential for modelling auto-levelling items/Weapons of Legacy as multi-classing is enough.

Batman's gadgets are just weapons which your common rogue can have. Bat shuriken, sleeping gas, what nots.

Yes, fair enough. You could build Batman that way.

But in 4e as it stands, no-body would build a character like Jarlaxle. First-off, you'd be too dependent on the DM giving you all those trinkets, which certainly couldn't be assumed. And secondly, because of the way the game is structured you would always be better off trading those many small items for one big item instead.

Does the game need an Artifice power source? No, of course not. But then, the same is true of Psionic, Primal, and even Divine sources - it only needs two: Martial and Magic.

But is there scope for an Artifice source? Yes, I think so. Would the game benefit from having such a source? Again, yes, I think so.

YMMV, of course.

 

[Minigiant]

I kinda of hoped power sources would be a lot more important than it is.

For example, Martial could be more at-will and basic weapon attacks. It would retain its lack of implement attacks. The encounter and daily attacks would be split into reactionary tactics and tricks that would only fool enemies once and encounter long stance buffs.

Arcane could be the opposite and be the implement daily based source. They could do something like burn another resource to regain daily powers. Academic arcanists would sacrifice encounter powers to recharge dailies during short rests while raw arcanists eat their healing surges.

Something like that.