D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?

[Obryn]

The fantasy genre throughout all forms of media is primarily based on western European and D&D is a reflection of that. There is even objections to include classes like the Monk or Samurai in it because of that. Settings that are different such as Dark Sun are largely settings that aren't as high profile. If they try to stray from that in the core books, it could negatively hurt sales as the people they are targeting are primarily those that want the western European fantasy.

D&D's core melting pot of "vaguely Eurasian stuff Gary and his friends thought were cool in the 70's" is pretty well here to stay. I don't think anyone's really arguing that. I at least am talking about having stuff like a mixture of skin tones and sexes on the characters in artwork, having female adventurers whose T&A aren't hanging out, and stuff like maybe a female DM in examples of play. I think that's a pretty low bar to set, but what do I know?

To pretend that this can be decontextualized is to imagine a world that has never existed. There is no cultural neutral zone. We are all part of the world in which we live. And those who are creating cultural products in that world are going to reflect who they are in that world, regardless of if they want it to or not.

Yep, this too. I think, though, for something as produced and manufactured as a new edition of D&D from a subsidiary of Hasbro, these decisions are in a weird state where the cultural context is subsumed by the whole corporate process. So the final result, however it is, will be mostly intentional design, art, and textual decisions. It's still a product of its overall culture, but there's (hopefully!) a level of awareness and intent that you might not find in some guy who just threw together an RPG and self-published it.

-O

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I have to share this anecdote, as embarassing as it is:

Circa early 1990's ( I was in my early 20's) Los Angeles:

A friend and I were discussing the Rodney King riots from a year or two prior (so I guess this makes it 93-94). The nature of the discussion included "Blacks" and "Whites", as you could imagine. We had just finished playing a game of D&D on campus and were walking to our cars. I don't remember the details except this one comment I made:

"That's true, unlike humans, you black people..." that's when I noticed his head whip around. We still laugh about it. Basically I was still in D&D mode: Elves, Dwarves, Humans. My mind was thinking of races in the D&D way. I made a promise to him that I have always kept (much to his chagrin): whenever I play a human, he has to be black.

So, word of warning, as a D&D player you might mix "metaphors" and come off as a racist.

I feel ya, bro- I once made a similar error. I was asking friends for first-date advice, and turned to one in particular, opened my mouth, and stopped. My obvious hesitation begged the question of what I was about to ask. I said no, it was a very bad question. This answer prompted a stern glare and a repeated request. I caved, and said what I had caught myself about to say:

"If you were a girl..."

Her beau grabbed her by the waist as she lunged and I dove for the safety of my closet.

To pretend that this can be decontextualized is to imagine a world that has never existed.

I currently live in a world without dragons and unicorns. I can pretend pretty hard.

 

[timASW]

I think D&D is doing a (fairly) good job at promoting equality of men and women. There are no discrimination of sorts in the rules, and men and women characters are "roughly" equally featured both in the text and the artwork (with the exception of the chainmail bikini sacred cow, of course).

But how about characters of different ethnicity? I don't know in 4e books, but in 3e books there were occasionally some asian-looking characters, but there were almost no black human characters. Notice that I'm not talking about necessarily having black dwarves, elves and halflings, but why not humans?

How about gender-bending characters? Can we have some occasional man NPC with man consort, or woman NPC with woman consort in the game (just presented as such, with no attached comment)? Or is the topic still too sensitive?

What's your take?

The more female on female artwork the better. The other side of that coin, not so much.

Seriously though, the idea of handing the same people who screamed about D&D being satanic because of some monsters a gun named "promoting homosexuality to my 13 year old" is probably the worst thing you could possibly do for the game brand as a whole other then re-printing some of Levays satanic summonings from the satanic bible he wrote.

And even that would be a toss up.

 

[Sunseeker]

To pretend that this can be decontextualized is to imagine a world that has never existed.

Isn't that um, kinda the point of D&D?

 

[TanithT]

The more female on female artwork the better. The other side of that coin, not so much.

Translation: "Hi, I am a privileged cisgendered heterosexual male. I want this game to be all about my porn (even though it mostly already is) and I will complain vigorously if even a small percentage of it isn't in line with my own sexual preferences. Me me me, mine mine mine. I don't care what anyone else wants. Your sexual orientations don't exist or don't matter, or they only exist if I think they're sexy. Mine is the only sexual orientation that actually counts. If I can't fap to you, then you shouldn't exist at all or be represented in my game."

Do you seriously have any idea how horrific and toxic a viewpoint that is to anyone who doesn't get to play the game of real life on the lowest difficulty setting, eg, as a cisgendered heterosexual male? Please go read some Scalzi before you put your foot in your mouth again.

And, give the rest of us some hot drow males in bondage ftw, please. Extra points if they are making out with other hot drow males. The folks who don't like it can go console themselves with the other 99% of fantasy art that already does cater to their homophobia and utter monolithic selfishness. Excuse me, to their personal preferences. I can't really tell the difference when it's stated like this.

In short, it's our game too. You are not ten years old and playing in the He-Man Woman Haters Clubhouse. Though it does sound a whole lot like you wish you were.

 

[timASW]

Translation: "Hi, I am a privileged cisgendered heterosexual male. I want this game to be all about my porn (even though it mostly already is) and I will complain vigorously if even a small percentage of it isn't in line with my own sexual preferences. Me me me, mine mine mine. I don't care what anyone else wants. Your sexual orientations don't exist or don't matter, or they only exist if I think they're sexy. Mine is the only sexual orientation that actually counts. If I can't fap to you, then you shouldn't exist at all."

Do you seriously have any idea how horrific and toxic a viewpoint that is to anyone who doesn't get to play the game of real life on the lowest difficulty setting, eg, as a cisgendered heterosexual male? Please go read some Scalzi before you put your foot in your mouth again.

And, give the rest of us some hot drow males in bondage ftw, please. Extra points if they are making out with other hot drow males. The folks who don't like it can go console themselves with the other 99% of fantasy art that already does cater to their homophobia and utter monolithic selfishness. Excuse me, to their personal preferences. I can't really tell the difference when it's stated like this.

google buddy, its your friend for hot drow males in bongage. Seriously google it ( i just did) the art is there for you. No need to foolishly kill the D&D brand by forcing it on every suburban soccer moms 12 year old.

 

[TanithT]

Back at you. If you want porn, Google for it. If you want a world background setting that shows a solid 'slice of life' well enough for everyone to suspend their disbelief in a fantasy culture, tell good stories and be inspired by the characters, then paint that. Without gratuitous porn, and with accurate slice-of-life representations that are realistically going to include a percentage of LGBT people. All of them, not just the ones you personally happen to think are hawt.

If you think it's reasonable to demand that you must always have only your flavor of eye candy in the game and never any form of sexuality depicted that doesn't cater to you personally, you need to think a lot harder about what you are saying to everyone else who plays this game.

No, this is not your clubhouse. You already have it your way the vast majority of the time. It is incredibly, incredibly rude and boorish to demand that it be all your way, all the time. We have voices too. We count. We matter. We exist.

I take it you seriously believe that the lesbian porn you are demanding in the game would be ever so much more appropriate for 12 year olds and their suburban soccer moms? Because, why?

 

[timASW]

Back at you. If you want porn, Google for it.

Ahh but I'm not throwing a temper tantrum because my brand of porn isnt currently in the books and crusading to include it. I dont need to see porn in my PHB. Nor should anyone else because it would be the death of the brand no matter what flavor of porn it was.

And more importantly, do you really think you get the highest quality artwork by telling an artist exactly what to draw?

Artists as people make the best stuff when left on their own. If you tell an artist to draw their image of a gay, black, asian garbed warrior you'll very likely get a very different picture then if you told that artist to simply draw a cool looking warrior.

And theres a very good chance that no matter what the end outcome is the one he drew as just a warrior will be a better image truer to his artistic vision.

You cant force artists to produce the art you want. Art requires the artist to have freedom of expression.

 

[Obryn]

I currently live in a world without dragons and unicorns. I can pretend pretty hard.

Isn't that um, kinda the point of D&D?

I think you're taking that way out of context, folks.

"There's no way to avoid D&D being a product of the culture that produces it, no matter how hard you pretend [that's not the case]." Or, denying reality will not strip the game, as published, of cultural baggage.

This has nothing to do with how hard you can pretend to be magical elves in fairyland.

Artists as people make the best stuff when left on their own. If you tell an artist to draw their image of a gay, black, asian garbed warrior you'll very likely get a very different picture then if you told that artist to simply draw a cool looking warrior.

And theres a very good chance that no matter what the end outcome is the one he drew as just a warrior will be a better image truer to his artistic vision.

You cant force artists to produce the art you want. Art requires the artist to have freedom of expression.

I don't think you have any idea how commissioned art works.

-O

 

[JamesonCourage]

Can we drop the porn talk and the pointless attacks on one another? (Pointless, as in, they will not help further any productive discussion.) The thread was interesting until that point, and I'd rather not see it closed because people would rather argue than hit "Report" and let one of our great mods handle things. As always, play what you like