Shouldn't Miracle have an XP component?

[StealthyMark]

Inspired by the excellent [B.A.D.D.] Dragon Spell List Feedback thread, I wondered again about Miracle.

Shouldn't have this spell the same XP cost (5,000 XP) as Wish? IMC, it has.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Note that the description of Miracle is not identical to Wish. There are several major differences. First of all, Miracle does not allow for raises to ability scores, creation of magic items, etc. such as Wish does. Miracle is also directly tied to one's god. Better hope that said god is pleased with you, thinks your cause is a good one, and isn't irritated that you're interrupting his divine game of pool. These are some very real drawbacks.

Also, if you wanted to do anything other than mimic spells as listed, you'd run into an XP cost of 5,000 anyway.

In some ways it's nicer than Wish, but in other ways it's not. Don't see a problem with it myself.

 

[nwn_deadman]

Note that the description of Miracle is not identical to Wish. There are several major differences. First of all, Miracle does not allow for raises to ability scores, creation of magic items, etc. such as Wish does. Miracle is also directly tied to one's god. Better hope that said god is pleased with you, thinks your cause is a good one, and isn't irritated that you're interrupting his divine game of pool. These are some very real drawbacks.

Also, if you wanted to do anything other than mimic spells as listed, you'd run into an XP cost of 5,000 anyway.

In some ways it's nicer than Wish, but in other ways it's not. Don't see a problem with it myself.

You are mistaken.

Miracle CAN grant ability raises just as Wish can.

Miracle is a (the other one is Wish) prereq for making a Manual or Tome.

Seeing as how Miracle is a prereq for making an item that grants ability raises, I would say that Miracle CAN raise them.

Also, when Miracle does this is WILL cost 5000xp just as Wish will.

 

[kreynolds]

You are mistaken.

Miracle CAN grant ability raises just as Wish can.

Miracle is a (the other one is Wish) prereq for making a Manual or Tome.

Seeing as how Miracle is a prereq for making an item that grants ability raises, I would say that Miracle CAN raise them.

Also, when Miracle does this is WILL cost 5000xp just as Wish will.

Funny. That's not in the spell description at all. Not in the PHB, not in the second printing of the PHB, not in the errata, not anywhere. Hmmm. That means, technically, he's not mistaken, even if it is mentioned as a prereq for a tome. Feel like pulling your mistaken foot out of your mistaken mouth?

 

[nwn_deadman]

Funny. That's not in the spell description at all. Not in the PHB, not in the second printing of the PHB, not in the errata, not anywhere. Hmmm. That means, technically, he's not mistaken, even if it is mentioned as a prereq for a tome. Feel like pulling your mistaken foot out of your mistaken mouth?

LOL

THE PHB IS NOT THE ONLY RULE BOOK, LAST TIME I CHECKED THE DMG was published by WOTC...

Page 227 TOME of LEADERSHIP AND INFLUENCE... WISH OR MIRACLE...

If that does not INFER that a Miracle can do what Wish can (WTH does it do?)

In order to STATE what a spell does and does not do you need to look at ALL PUBLISHED MATERIAL.

I think YOU NEED TO TAKE YOUR FOOT OUT OF YOUR MOUTH!!!

 

[StealthyMark]

There are some spells and psionic powers, which can duplicate other spells:
Emulate Power (Psi [Clasen] 7), 300 XP
Limited Wish (Sor/Wiz 7, Spell 7), 300 XP
Greater Emulation (Psi [Clasen] 9), 5,000 XP
Wish (Sor/Wiz 9), 5,000 XP
Miracle (Clr 9), 0 XP

Because the emulation of spells is very powerful, all of them cost XP. Except for Miracle.

Is this right?

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

LOL

THE PHB IS NOT THE ONLY RULE BOOK, LAST TIME I CHECKED THE DMG was published by WOTC...

Page 227 TOME of LEADERSHIP AND INFLUENCE... WISH OR MIRACLE...

If that does not INFER that a Miracle can do what Wish can (WTH does it do?)

In order to STATE what a spell does and does not do you need to look at ALL PUBLISHED MATERIAL.

I think YOU NEED TO TAKE YOUR FOOT OUT OF YOUR MOUTH!!!

Are you REALLY claiming that having a spell as a prereq for a magic item means that spell can do what the magic item can do?

If you are, you are DEAD wrong.

Many magic items have spell prereqs that are related to the effect, but do not in any way match it.

Miracle can not increase ability scores any more than fireball can be cast on a sword during combat to make it flaming.

 

[skunian]

I don't see much of an issue here. You can use miracle to cast other spells with no XP cost (this is because there are some restrictions on what you can ask for etc, based on your ethos) You can use miracle to do anything else a wish would do, but in doing so you incur the 5000xp cost and are still subject to the whims of your god. Seems to me that wish is a better spell, a lot less limitations.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I don't see much of an issue here. You can use miracle to cast other spells with no XP cost (this is because there are some restrictions on what you can ask for etc, based on your ethos) You can use miracle to do anything else a wish would do, but in doing so you incur the 5000xp cost and are still subject to the whims of your god. Seems to me that wish is a better spell, a lot less limitations.

You can't do "anything" that a Wish could do. The examples given under Miracle do not at all line up with the things Wish lists. If you could do anything a Wish could do, it would be very easy for them to make that clear.

I do agree that the spell is fine as is. Being able to burn a 9th level spell without any XP cost to produce any 8th level effect is good, but not broken. On the other hand, spending 5000 XP with a wish to produce a lower level effect is a steep cost. Not that I think it should be changed, just that some of the allowed uses are less potent than others. So the way I see it, Miracle is better for producing other spell effects and healing, while Wish is better for being highly flexible, even though it is always expensive.

 

[skunian]

From the SRD "Alternatively, the cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved. A request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused."

To me this implies I can ask for anything I want, including anything listed in the description of wish.