Shouldn't most Rituals be free?

[Ahglock]

I'll note that in my group Knock looks like it will be quite useful. The Warlock might have Thievery, might not. Even if he does, the Wizard's (and the Warlord's!) Arcana skill would be much higher than his Thievery skill. As such, the Knock ritual definitely has its benefits.

Further, I think the people discussing Knock might be missing one of the most useful aspects of it; it can 'unlock' items that Thievery simply can't. The example of a gate barred from the other side is explicitly given. Another point is that it's probably most useful on locked items that are portable. I could place a chest somewhere that is extremely difficult to unlock (i.e., the Thievery guy may be completely unable to open it), knowing that the Knock Ritual exists and that the players can resort to it.

Also, the existence of Arcane Lock more or less requires a ritual to help defeat it. The characters I have could lock something with Arcane Lock, and have an average result of 28 at 4th level. At least for my group, the Thievery guy might be able to unlock that with a 20 at 4th level... 20 + 5 + 1 + 2... I guess it all depends on if he has a Dex bonus or not. (As a Star-pact Warlock, that's not all that likely.)

And in all cases it would be cheaper, faster, and just as quiet to use force to get past the door or gate.

 

[Ahglock]

I'm quite happy with this. Scrying was waaaaaay too easy in 3.X. It may not seem like much, but it could wreak havoc with an adventure plot unless every villain had some sort of scrying ward - in which case, why bother having scrying to begin with?

It wasn't on the teleport level of plot wreckage, but it was up there.

Neither scrying or teleport wrecked any plots in my games, in fact they were plot starters or extenders sometimes. And even if they were plot destroyers in other peoples games, making the cost 31,00GP and the effect a totally sucky 30 seconds after a long ritual makes them totally useless in 4e.

I would have preferred if they had I don't know made it a useful effect that wasn't abusive so even in games where people did not like dealing with scrying it still would not wreck there game. Making something worthless is not a fix.

 

[Ahglock]

I can think of any number of real-world people and organizations who would pay the equivalent of 31,000 gp to find out the whereabouts of someone or something.

A lot of real world organizations have a lot more money than the PCs will ever have. Also I am not so sure they would use it, if they could not record it and have a team of video experts go over the recording a million times looking for clues. 30 seconds when the guy just might be in a nondescript bathroom is not a worthwhile expenditure.

There are only so many times someone is going to blow 31,000GP equivalent and get absolutely nothing for it before they just wont use it anymore. Sure a government might do it over and over because well lets face it they are not spending there own money. Oh and sure the bill gates of the world might do it over and over again if his child was kidnapped or something.

But will PCs ever use this? Somehow I doubt it unless the DM shoehorns in a contrived scrying scenario. "At precisely midnight the Noble will speak the password to the guard in the east passage allowing him access to the treasury. "

 

[Caliban]

And in all cases it would be cheaper, faster, and just as quiet to use force to get past the door or gate.

I disagree with this, at least on the quietness part. I think that bashing a door down would make considerably more noise than "...reading a long passage from the ritual book..." which is the only thing the PHB mentions as specifically making noise - and there is no requirement that you have to read it loudly, or in a strong voice, or any such thing.

I think that whatever is on the other side of the door would have an easier time hear the door being broken down than hearing someone reading from a book as quitely as they can (or as the DM allows). (Although since the ritual will likely take longer, whatever is on the other side of the door will likely get more listen checks.)

Besides, often you don't want to destroy the door.

If you are just doing a standard dungeon delve smash-and-grab where speed is more important than stealth, and you don't care who knows your coming or that you have been there, then bashing the door down is the way to go. But that is not always the case.

Just my two cents.

 

[Ragnar69]

Are you aware that a lvl 24 party should find over 1 million GPs before leveling up? I think in that context 31000 for scry aren't that much anymore.

 

[Ahglock]

I disagree with this, at least on the quietness part. I think that bashing a door down would make considerably more noise than "...reading a long passage from the ritual book..." which is the only thing the PHB mentions as specifically making noise - and there is no requirement that you have to read it loudly, or in a strong voice, or any such thing.

I think that whatever is on the other side of the door would have an easier time hear the door being broken down than hearing someone reading from a book as quitely as they can (or as the DM allows). (Although since the ritual will likely take longer, whatever is on the other side of the door will likely get more listen checks.)

Besides, often you don't want to destroy the door.

If you are just doing a standard dungeon delve smash-and-grab where speed is more important than stealth, and you don't care who knows your coming or that you have been there, then bashing the door down is the way to go. But that is not always the case.

Just my two cents.

True, per round bashing the door down would be louder. But you can guarantee you will succeed by forcing it, with knock you can still roll sucky. With it being 10 minutes the only way the ritual would not be discovered is if it was unguarded, in which case you could probably just force the door. I am sure I can come up with situations where it would pan out being useful, its an unguarded gate but guards are near enough by that they will hear really loud noises but normal chanting would have a DC so high success would be impossible.

The thing is if you reduce the scope of where you would use it enough, would a player bother learning the ritual in the first place. You only get so many free rituals known as a wizard and after that you have to find or purchase them. If you will use it maybe once or twice in your career, will you bother getting it.

I like rituals i think they are a cool idea, I would of preferred requiring a divine or arcane class for the feat so it would feel more magical to me but that is a nit-pick. My real problem is I think the costs are so high in initially getting, and actually casting these rituals that to many of them became worthless.

 

[Ahglock]

Are you aware that a lvl 24 party should find over 1 million GPs before leveling up? I think in that context 31000 for scry aren't that much anymore.

Having over a million is nice but 31,000 still is a lot of money then. And besides at level 24 they are expected to be worth more than a million, not have over a million GP. They would likely have around 400,000 in non essential items or more fluid GP. A lot of that will go to the non-core 3 item slots, leaving a lot less than 400,000GP to play with.

Assuming a party of 5 and maybe 50,000GP in actual cash apiece they have 250,000 GP to spend on a ritual. Will they really want to blow over a 1/10th of that on a 30 second scrying ritual when they have no idea if it will have an effect worth a dang.

Heck at level 30 your liquid money probably isn't enough to justify casting this ritual. And why is this in the epic tier anyways. For gods sake being able to scry like a disney villain you need to be epic, who thought that up?? I'd like my epic to be a bit more epic please.

 

[Renfield]

I'm quite happy with this. Scrying was waaaaaay too easy in 3.X. It may not seem like much, but it could wreak havoc with an adventure plot unless every villain had some sort of scrying ward - in which case, why bother having scrying to begin with?

It wasn't on the teleport level of plot wreckage, but it was up there.

Wow, where I come from my fellow DM's would laugh at DM's who couldn't handle their PC's using scry in 3rd edition. But then as a DM I'm of the mindset that most of what was considered 'broken' in 3e wasn't actually. Scying, for instance, was easy to notice and easy to counter. It was also a very good way to advance the plot if people could actually stop looking at things that are useful to PC's as broken and actually look at them as advantages.

Imagine this. You spend a precious hour of your time, use 31000 gp worth of resources and finally you manage to scry your foe, your long time nemesis, eager to learn something crucial about his next sinister plan and you even roll a natural twenty on your skill check so you can.... watch him drop a deuce for a whole 30 seconds? I'm sorry, but if people think that scrying is broken there are better ways to handle it than making it 31000gp and an hour casting time for all of 30 seconds worth of scrying.


NOTE: My apologies if the comment seemed snide. An issue I've had with D&D since 3rd edition was the mentality that if something was useful it was obviously over powered and therefor must be changed for the sake of balance. I run games where the group knows it is not invincible and my players have been (for the most part) mature enough not to abuse the rules mainly because they knew it was a small matter to counter or make them wish they hadn't. Scrying was never something I considered over powered or a plot buster. I can see how some people can, but I don't think doing what they did to it was a good idea of even a well thought idea.

 

[Renfield]

Wait, were people actually trying to compare D&D to the real world?

 

[Emrakul]

True, per round bashing the door down would be louder. But you can guarantee you will succeed by forcing it, with knock you can still roll sucky. With it being 10 minutes the only way the ritual would not be discovered is if it was unguarded, in which case you could probably just force the door. I am sure I can come up with situations where it would pan out being useful, its an unguarded gate but guards are near enough by that they will hear really loud noises but normal chanting would have a DC so high success would be impossible.

The thing is if you reduce the scope of where you would use it enough, would a player bother learning the ritual in the first place. You only get so many free rituals known as a wizard and after that you have to find or purchase them. If you will use it maybe once or twice in your career, will you bother getting it.

I like rituals i think they are a cool idea, I would of preferred requiring a divine or arcane class for the feat so it would feel more magical to me but that is a nit-pick. My real problem is I think the costs are so high in initially getting, and actually casting these rituals that to many of them became worthless.

the book states a DC 20 to undo bolts or bars you can't reach, a +5 bonus means your arcana level (skill focus feat gives +3) plus the die roll has to be 15 or more. also the gate could have no external guards posted and no raised lookout point, so anyone on the other side of the gate could tip off guards if the gate was being broken down, but would think nothing of a voice that could be coming from their side of the wall. and if they knew you were outside your target could become aware and escape or prepare for a large battle where your group would be overwhelmed. also trying to break a strong door can tire you out or injure you or damage your equipment if you fail. but if you fail the ritual, you only lose 1 healing surge, 10 minutes and 35 gp of components (more if a scroll is used instead of the actual ritual)