• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Show me you License, please.

fivepopes

Explorer
I've played the game ever since 1e and been happy about all new editions up to and including 3.5e. Therefore, I was also very excited about the release of 4e. But after playing thirty sessions and buying five books, my gaming group gave up and switched to Pathfinder. That move felt like coming home.

I'll not go into the reasons why 4e didn't work for us, because gamers will never be able to agree on this. What we probably can agree on, though, is that abandoning the OGL and enforcing a quite effective gamer repellant license, was a mistake.

The Wizards have now realized this, and are banging the gong-gong of Unity and Homecoming for all gamers to hear. The only trouble is this: Unity is important if you want to peddle as much RPG-material as possible, but unity matters very little to gamers. What matters a lot to gamers though, is COMMunity.

How can Wizards create that community?

They don't need to because it's still there. It's called d20 and OGL, and the Wizards were key players in creating that community.

But then the Wizards got greedy and envisioned a larger cut for themselves, so they created a new system with a closed license. Never mind that the game sucked. Mayhaps it could have been fixed, had they let the hive mind have a go at it. But no, they knew best and bid the community consume their stuff and shut up. The community of course, being denied the freedom to contribute and (re)distribute, moved along to help create the thriving Pathfinder ecology.

And now the Wizards want the community to come back home, unite and even help them create 5e. Which would be an extremely good deal for the Wizards. But will this happen? Only if the Wizards can offer the community a deal of equal or higher value to the existing one. Why help create a game system, if you're not free to play, expand upon, add value to, mutate, share and distribute it as you like?

So what, exactly, is the deal this time around, Wizards? Because of your recent crummy track record I want to know up front, before I start helping you out. Show me your License, please!
 

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KJSEvans

First Post
I'm tracking a lot of this discussion here, elsewhere and on Twitter* ... it really seems like the game that people want to play is an awful lot like HackMaster. Games with...

No dragon born or tiefling in the core book
Bring back half-Orcs and gnomes
Bring back the exploration feel, not all combat
Return the feeling of magic items being magical
Traps outside of combat
Lawful good paladins
"I like the 3-18 ability scores. Love look on faces when they roll poorly..."
Save or die effects
9 alignments
Saving throws

This is all stuff that's in the current HackMaster game. A game, I might add, that is not going to change editions for a long, long time, if ever.

(*technically also "elsewhere")
 


Wormwood

Adventurer
I'm tracking a lot of this discussion here, elsewhere and on Twitter* ... it really seems like the game that people want to play is an awful lot like HackMaster. Games with...

Well, your list neatly removes just about everything 4e brought to the game, Unless your definition of unity is essentially 3e, I'd say you;re excluding much of D&D's current base.
 

KJSEvans

First Post
The way I see it, 5eDnD is going to have a lot of problems unifying anything. They certainly want to win back the audience that Pathfinder currently controls ... but Pathfinder is a great game that is extremely well-supported. They also certainly would like to recapture the interest of the Old School Gamers out there, but between HackMaster and Castles & Crusades, I suspect that itch is already being scratched.

In any case, that list was compiled from dozens of comments made by dozens of people... seems to me like more people want the things that have been lost, rather than the things that were "gained."
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
The way I see it, 5eDnD is going to have a lot of problems unifying anything. They certainly want to win back the audience that Pathfinder currently controls ... but Pathfinder is a great game that is extremely well-supported. They also certainly would like to recapture the interest of the Old School Gamers out there, but between HackMaster and Castles & Crusades, I suspect that itch is already being scratched.

In any case, that list was compiled from dozens of comments made by dozens of people... seems to me like more people want the things that have been lost, rather than the things that were "gained."


I think when you see comments from folks about what needs to be brought back to the game they naturally are not mentioning things that are currently part of the game unless they are speciafically mentioning something they want removed.
 

Wormwood

Adventurer
The way I see it, 5eDnD is going to have a lot of problems unifying anything. They certainly want to win back the audience that Pathfinder currently controls ... but Pathfinder is a great game that is extremely well-supported. They also certainly would like to recapture the interest of the Old School Gamers out there, but between HackMaster and Castles & Crusades, I suspect that itch is already being scratched.

In any case, that list was compiled from dozens of comments made by dozens of people... seems to me like more people want the things that have been lost, rather than the things that were "gained."

And I agree, to a point. I can easily point to dozens of players for who 4e was their D&D of choice (my players of 3+ years being a shining example).

I don;t envy WotC their task of finding a sweet spot for as broad a group as possible, because at the end of the day they're not going to do 3.X better than Pathfinder, 1x better than Osric, or 4e better than . . . well, 4e.

Interesting times.
 

May I add, that Pathfinder is a great game, because it is essentially 3.x, just a little bit better developed, though not into the right direction for everyone.

4e had great ideas too, and did a lot to revolutionize D&D. Some things I really don´t want to see go.

If I should vote for a great concept that I admittedly never played, but bought, is TRAILBLAZER. It tried to take good parts of 4e and 3e and tried to actually fix problems.
Its problem is backwards compatibility. It is just a little bit annoying changing little details on everything. If I had to start a new edition, maybe I would start with trailblazer and add 3e, 4e, 2e and 1e to my taste.

And then strip it down to basics and add in good working things as options. Settle starting level for beginners and for experts.

And then (look how created tension to reply to the opening post) add an OGL that allows anyone to use the core books and allow to reprint core books, if wizard decides to stop it... but disallows the creation of core books until wizards stops producing them.
 
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delericho

Legend
The thing that WotC bring to the table is the rights to the name "Dungeons & Dragons". Crazy as it is, that name has a strong emotional draw. I want to like this game.

So, I'm willing to "help WotC out" for the sake of my first (RPG) love.
 

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