Shuriken question(s)

[Belares]

We were looking at the shuriken for a rogue and had some questions.

1. Is it a minor action to draw then use as a standard action (basic or powered) or free action? The reason is if it is free i would not go with Quickdraw feat.

2. Can you use a weapon in main hand and still be able to throw them with off hand? Is it a free action to move main hand weapon and switch with shurikens to use them as well?

3. Are they considered ammunition and if so do you reuse them or are they lost everytime you throw them. (ammuntion is lost when you use them i think is why i ask)

4. If i use them in the rogue power blinding barrage and there are 4 targets i use 4 shurikens. Do i lose them all (see above question).

Thanks for conformations and solutions.

 

[Eric Finley]

1. Like all items except shields and certain magic items, it's a minor action to draw a shuriken. You'd need Quickdraw to get access to more than you have hands, during any one power use (such as the barrage).

2. Yes. There's no off-hand penalty in this edition, so you can have a sword in your main hand and a shuriken in your left, and throw the shuriken without penalty. You just can't combine the two hands in a single action unless explicitly allowed to do so. The rules don't specify what kind of action it is to swap hands, but due to the lack of off-hand penalty I don't expect you'll really need to.

3. Yes, they're ammunition, and yes, nonmagical ones would technically be consumed when you use them. For something like shuriken, the DM is highly likely to allow you to recover them after combat, but per RAW they're lost. Note that magical thrown weapons return after use so you can stop worrying about this soon.

4. Yes, if nonmagical. If magical, customer service is being unclear; there are AFAIK conflicting answers. Some say that they return "instantly" even within a single power usage, so you can do a blinding barrage on four targets with a single enchanted shuriken. (I personally think that's really lame.) The other answer is that it comes back at the end of the action, so you can only use a single enchanted shuriken on a single target within the barrage. (This one seems much more reasonable to me.)

Our group has ruled that the "returns after being thrown" is a special property that can be added to any magical thrown weapon (adding probably about one level to the item) but doesn't come with it automatically. Otherwise the weapon is in the target (and can be retrieved from there if desired) and/or lost until the end of the encounter, but you'll always retrieve it at that point. Thus far it's been purely academic, though, as we have no thrown weapon users. (Both rogues prefer slings for style reasons.)

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

We were looking at the shuriken for a rogue and had some questions.

1. Is it a minor action to draw then use as a standard action (basic or powered) or free action? The reason is if it is free i would not go with Quickdraw feat.

Yes it requires a Minor Action to draw. And the actions required to use the item is considered in the power. So unlike what the post above says, you do not need Quick Draw to use them with "Blinding Barrage"

2. Can you use a weapon in main hand and still be able to throw them with off hand? Is it a free action to move main hand weapon and switch with shurikens to use them as well?

Yes

3. Are they considered ammunition and if so do you reuse them or are they lost everytime you throw them. (ammuntion is lost when you use them i think is why i ask)

No. I can find no where that they are listed as ammunition. They are a Light Thrown weapon. You dont lose your Javelin a Heavy Thrown weapon when you throw it the same holds true for the shuriken.

4. If i use them in the rogue power blinding barrage and there are 4 targets i use 4 shurikens. Do i lose them all (see above question).

No you do not lose them.

 

[Belares]

Ok now a question comes up. How do you do shurikens as a magic item? Do you have 1 that is magical or a group of 5 (or even 10)? It would matter on the rogue's Blinding Barrage power (as it is a blast).

 

[Ryujin]

Ok now a question comes up. How do you do shurikens as a magic item? Do you have 1 that is magical or a group of 5 (or even 10)? It would matter on the rogue's Blinding Barrage power (as it is a blast).

They would be individual, just like daggers. You could always go for the Bracers of Infinite Blades though, with Shuriken as the light blades dispensed.

 

[Dreadite]

Our group plays it that magical thrown weapons return "instantly" unless you want to look cool (with boomerang returns). So a blast would just be a series of really quick toss and return motions.

It works for us, your group's mileage may vary.

Admittedly, this is a bit of a houserule patch, but otherwise blinding barrage is nearly useless past level 1 without a specific feat. I wonder if that was the original intent of the power.

 

[Regicide]

Ok now a question comes up. How do you do shurikens as a magic item? Do you have 1 that is magical or a group of 5 (or even 10)? It would matter on the rogue's Blinding Barrage power (as it is a blast).

I find, when it doubt, consult Xena. Flip and warrior princess cry optional!
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-IH96QYeAY"]YouTube - Chakram[/ame]

 

[webrunner]

4. Yes, if nonmagical. If magical, customer service is being unclear; there are AFAIK conflicting answers. Some say that they return "instantly" even within a single power usage, so you can do a blinding barrage on four targets with a single enchanted shuriken. (I personally think that's really lame.) The other answer is that it comes back at the end of the action, so you can only use a single enchanted shuriken on a single target within the barrage. (This one seems much more reasonable to me.)

Our group has ruled that the "returns after being thrown" is a special property that can be added to any magical thrown weapon (adding probably about one level to the item) but doesn't come with it automatically. Otherwise the weapon is in the target (and can be retrieved from there if desired) and/or lost until the end of the encounter, but you'll always retrieve it at that point. Thus far it's been purely academic, though, as we have no thrown weapon users. (Both rogues prefer slings for style reasons.)

That seems like it would be pretty damning to magical thrown weapons. Magic weapons are expensive, and to expect a rogue to have more than one magical weapon (or a more-expensive magical weapon) just to use one or two powers like blinding barrage, is just going to make blinding barrage + thrown weapons a choice nobody takes.

 

[Keenath]

You'd need Quickdraw to get access to more than you have hands, during any one power use (such as the barrage).

That's not correct. PHB page 217 says under "Load", "If a power allows you to hit multiple targets, the additional load time is accounted for in the power." This doesn't explicitly call out drawing multiple thrown weapons, but it would be pretty silly to argue that you can draw, load, and fire four crossbow bolts during the execution of a power, but couldn't draw and hurl four daggers.

In any case, you have to start a multi-target power with your weapon loaded or in hand, but then you can fire/throw as many times as the power allows even if you lack Quickdraw.

The rules don't specify what kind of action it is to swap hands, but due to the lack of off-hand penalty I don't expect you'll really need to.

I believe it has been clarified by the devs that it's a free action to move something from one hand to the other or to change your grip from one-handed to two-handed, subject to DM limitations to reduce cheese. It's suggested you limit hand-changes to once per turn, to avoid abuses such as a swordmage who attacks two-handed to get his Versatile damage bonus, and the lets go with his off-hand to get the full benefit of his Warding. But as you said, there's no penalty for an off-hand attack, so there's really no need to juggle swords and shuriken. Just throw left-handed.

Interestingly, this was the method preferred by actual samurai, who sometimes wore the needle-like shuriken in their hair, to be thrown at an opponent's head as a distraction or at their feet to (hopefully) nail their hakama to the floor. In either case, it would serve to throw the opponent off-balance at a crucial moment while the thrower launched an attack with his sword.

 

[Keenath]

That seems like it would be pretty damning to magical thrown weapons. Magic weapons are expensive, and to expect a rogue to have more than one magical weapon (or a more-expensive magical weapon) just to use one or two powers like blinding barrage, is just going to make blinding barrage + thrown weapons a choice nobody takes.

That's a good point. And really the rules aren't very clear; it says thrown weapons return "after a ranged attack with the weapon is resolved". Well, technically you're resolving each attack as you make it during a burst or blast, so it's easy to argue that the weapon returns. At the same time, it's kind of weird that you can throw a bunch of daggers "simultaneously" for something like Twin Attack, which seems to be flavored as firing two arrows at the same time.

Also, I hesitate to bring it up, but if you can make four attacks in a turn with a single shuriken, what's the point of Bracers of Infinite Blades? That's a pretty expensive item not to do anything.