Shuriken question(s)

[Keenath]

Everyone here is assuming that shurikens can be wielded in the off-hand, but they don't have the off-hand property...

That is true. However, shuriken are not melee weapons, and off-hand appears to be a property of melee weapons.*

Apart from that, are you seriously going to tell me I can throw a dagger with my off-hand, but I can't throw an even smaller, even lighter blade in the same manner?


* Look at what off-hand does, at the uses of having a weapon in your off hand. You can use the TWF feat -- "While holding a melee weapon in each hand..." The ranger has a special ability to treat one-handed weapons as off-hand -- "because of your focus on two-weapon melee attacks".

It's clear that the intent is for off-hand to refer to melee weapons, not the ability to throw a shuriken while still holding a sword.

 

[Ryujin]

And yet you can freely use a sword in one hand, and a rod or wand (or apparently even staff) as an implement in your off-hand.

 

[boar]

However, shuriken are not melee weapons, and off-hand appears to be a property of melee weapons.*

"Appears?" How do you figure? The description of "off-hand" is immediately preceded by "load," a ranged weapon property. The ranged and melee property descriptions are all in the same section, and there is nothing in the off-hand description to limit it to melee weapons.

* Look at what off-hand does, at the uses of having a weapon in your off hand. You can use the TWF feat -- "While holding a melee weapon in each hand..."

With all due respect, your logic here is completely unsound. The melee weapon clause is there as a RESTRICTION to avoid abuse such as holding a dagger in your off-hand to get bonus damage with a shuriken in your main. The flavor of the feat is to give bonus damage to dual-wielding melee fighters, and the melee weapon clause enforces the flavor -- this says nothing about the off-hand property.

As for the ranger ability description, you've got a good point there. The way the ability is worded, it certainly would be silly if it gave rangers the ability to off-wield ranged weapons. Yet that is exactly what it does. Make a two-weapon ranger in the character builder and you'll see that it can wield a hand crossbow, sling, or shuriken in the off-hand, while other classes can't. This is a case where the flavor doesn't match the mechanics.

Sure, the rules don't make much sense. But the OP was interested in what the rules are, not what they should be. I don't want to argue with you, I want to give the OP the information he is looking for.

And, dangit, I forgot about short swords .

 

[Keenath]

For what it's worth, CustServ agrees with me:

Q: Can I wield a longsword in my primary hand and still draw and throw shuriken with my off-hand?

A: Yes, you can do that.

 

[Keenath]

"Appears?" How do you figure? The description of "off-hand" is immediately preceded by "load," a ranged weapon property. The ranged and melee property descriptions are all in the same section, and there is nothing in the off-hand description to limit it to melee weapons.

Primarily, because none of them have it, even the ones where it would make sense, like the hand crossbow and shuriken.

Sure, the rules don't make much sense. But the OP was interested in what the rules are, not what they should be. I don't want to argue with you, I want to give the OP the information he is looking for.

What the rules are is unclear and nonsensical; so at that point you have to start considering the intent of the rules. The devs themselves have said repeatedly that they don't want people to blindly apply the rules.

The intent of the off-hand property is clearly to interact with two-weapon fighting and similar abilities. It's designed around the assumption that you're dealing with melee weapons. Since daggers are offhand, it's pretty obvious that it's either an oversight that shuriken didn't get that keyword, or else that the keyword just doesn't apply to ranged weapons.

 

[Majushi]

And now, for something completely different;

(well. not that different...)

Can I use a shuriken as a melee weapon?

(i.e. like a javelin or a dagger)

 

[Ryujin]

You can use a feather duster as a melee weapon if you really want to. It simply isn't very effective. When used in melee a shuriken would have no proficiency bonus and would do 1d4 damage, like any other improvised melee weapon. I might even house rule it to do less.

*EDIT* Correction - By RAW you couldn't even use a shuriken as an improvised weapon, because it doesn't fall in the 1-5 pound weight range.

 

[Keenath]

Ryuujin's got it right; it's an improvised weapon.

Improvised weapons are really an area of DM fiat. I would rule that hitting somebody with a ranged weapon (or ammo) in melee is similar to throwing a weapon that lacks the thrown keyword.

I wouldn't restrict you from using shuriken or arrows in melee just because they don't fall in the weight range; they're made to be weapons, just not to be used that way. So if you wanted to stab somebody with as shuriken or arrow, I'd treat it as an improvised melee weapon that deals 1d4 damage and has no proficiency bonus.

Throwing a sword is essentially the same; I'd probably treat it as an improvised heavy thrown weapon, so it'd deal 1d4 and grant no proficiency bonus.